Hohenstaufen dynasty centralized HRE, German dominated Europe?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Deleted member 1487

Well the HRE has a huge problem in that there are effectively two bases of power: Germany and Italy. They make centralization difficult as the emperor has to constantly go back and forth to impose his authority rather than cement rule in one place. More homogenous and less rowdy area.

I think it would be best if the HRE lets Italy go somehow (difficult I'd imagine as Italy is quite wealthy and populated) and instead focuses its efforts on binding Germany into an actual state.
Which is why I suggested leaving it to a branch of the family a la the Habsburgs and keeping it as a Kingdom within the Empire run from Italy by the Italian branch of the family while the Emperor runs the Empire from Germany and focuses on managing the core lands; I like the viceroy idea too and mixing the two would probably be a decent solution IMHO.

I could see the Italian areas fighting for their independance like OTL Netherlands did from Spain.
In a sense the Spanish-Netherlands situation was OTL HRE-Italy situation. Trying to keep it a directly administered part of the realm is a losing proposition, best to have to ruled by a representative of the family on site and have the Emperor stay in Germany.
 
In the end,Frederick II's policy was to fu#$ Germany and focus all on Italy.I suspect that if he succeeded the bringing at least Italy to centralized rule,the HRE would have been much better off.Of course,the constant problem to centralizing the HRE was always the elephant in the room,the Pope.I suspect that any ruler trying to control Italy(even if they don't want to control the Papal states) will sooner or later run into trouble with the pope.

I also suspect that even if the HRE was willing to f#$k Italy and concentrate mostly on Germany,the Pope will always interfere to prevent a centralized HRE from developing,as a centralized Germany will probably have the power to enforce centralization in Italy as well.
 
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Well... there isn't really anything extraordinary to do with Frederick II, just a regular education, Henry VI had a really good position in Italy and would continue to do in his reign. I don't much idea in how big his personal demesne was (except he had Meissen), but by proxy he had Swabia and Upper Burgundy through his brothers Philip and Otto and he can always add Saxony should those pesky Welfs rebel once again. :rolleyes:

But the question is: I really don't think the Empire would be "centralized" on the mold of France. It is just so big (spamming from Holstein to Malta) and the geography doesn't really help. I can think of a "federal" (if you can call it) Empire with an working Imperial Diet developing following continuos reigns of Staufer emperors.

Also, try reading "The Prince of Peace", it's pretty much about Henry VI surviving.
Where can you find the prince of peace?
 
I agree.Whenever the HRE crushes a rebellion,and whenever the emperor takes that land,what seems to happen is that he generally distributes that land to his supporters instead of setting up an administration where a non-hereditary steward/governor reports directly to the emperor unlike the French Kings.

They're limits on what a monarch could do. Not to mention that these governors would govern Imperial Lands (lands of the Empire) and not the dynastic lands of the Emperor.
In a hereditary monarch there's no such distinction, but in an elective monarchy there is.

By the time of the Hohenstaufen, the Imperial Lands also included the dynastic lands of now extinct previous dynasties, though the Hohenstaufen also inherited dynastic lands from the Salian dynasty (they were their dynastic heirs). During the Great Interregnum, after the Hohenstaufen went extinct and the Golden Bull of 1356 most of the Imperial Lands ended up being granted away.

Expanding the dynastic lands was met with suspicion and required some compromises, like also given part of the reward to others.
For instance Rudolf of Habsburg was able to grant the duchies of Austria & Styria to his sons, but the duchy of Carinthia and the margraviate of Carniola, which he wasn't allowed to keep, Rudolf granted to his lifelong ally Meinhard of Görz-Tirol.

Also it's not like France stopped granting fiefs, though most eventually were in the form of appanages for members of the Royal dynasty.

Once the Hohenstaufen would manage to make the position of king of the Romans hereditary, then they will be in a better position to pursue even more 'French' policies.
 
Was France not an elective monarchy before Phillipe Augustus though?Prior to Phillipe Augustus,the French kings had to crown their heirs during their lifetime with the consent of the nobles.
 
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Was France not a hereditary monarchy before Phillipe Augustus though?Prior to Phillipe Augustus,the French kings had to crown their heirs during their lifetime with the consent of the nobles.

In West Francia, later France, the Capetians replaced the Carolingians. In East Francia, later the HRE, the Carolingians were replaced by the Conradines, Ottonians, Salians, Supplinburg and Hohenstaufen (with an occasional Welf).
The Capetians managed to stay around long enough to become a de facto hereditary dynasty before their kingship was really hereditary.
Whereas in the HRE, most monarchs were able to secure succession for a member of their dynasty, but due to them not staying around long enough, they never were able to make it last (at least not until the elective character was fully entrenched).
 
In West Francia, later France, the Capetians replaced the Carolingians. In East Francia, later the HRE, the Carolingians were replaced by the Conradines, Ottonians, Salians, Supplinburg and Hohenstaufen (with an occasional Welf).
The Capetians managed to stay around long enough to become a de facto hereditary dynasty before their kingship was really hereditary.
Whereas in the HRE, most monarchs were able to secure succession for a member of their dynasty, but due to them not staying around long enough, they never were able to make it last (at least not until the elective character was fully entrenched).
So basically,they need to stay for a long time until the nobles forgot the throne was even elective?
 
See, whenever I think of a Barbarossa survives timeline, I can't help but think that he'd attempt to control Jerusalem as part of the HRE (if vastly independent), and have to move his centre of power to either end of the Alps so that he can control Italy, control Germany, and project power to Jerusalem. I may be wrong, and he may not seek control of Jerusalem, in which case he has a lot of prestige from that adventure succeeding.

In both scenarios he could consider Jerusalem a good place to send uncooperative nobles that would otherwise resist his attempts to centralize. If they are in Jerusalem, what can they do resist his actions in Europe proper?

The HRE could grow in any number of directions. It could seek to control Naples, or try and beat the snot out of France.
Regarding how to centralize, I expect that we'd see a centralizing HRE seeking to establish a base of power as I said before, in either Austria, or perhaps even Provence - with part of the centralization process being to take territory away from the local rulers.

Long story short - it could be interesting, and Jerusalem could become a long-term dumping ground for resistant nobles. I'd expect significant efforts to conquer Hungary and Illyria/Yugoslavia/Not ERE and attempt to Germanize the areas. Expect the development of significant infrastructure projects at the eastern end of the Alps/NE Italy/SW Hungary as that would be an ideal power base for the HRE.

I'd also expect to see attempts to bring the Kings of France, and the Spains under HRE rule, and to challenge the ERE. Will all this succeed, doubtful. The Jerusalem adventure makes the ERE stronger, and may well lead to the ERE reclaiming the Balkans after it reclaims Anatolia (and maybe Egypt). Another target would be Denmark - a perfect place to set up the Royal Heir? Prince of Denmark = Heir to the Empire?

We could see an attempt to conquer Egypt made by either Roman Emperor to be honest.

End result - there will be more Germans going south east, than north east in this timeline, but yes, the Germans would be holding the balance of power for a very long time. Germany Proper would extend into Hungary, and perhaps Croatia, and the Netherlands may well not evolve into a different nationality.

I don't remember reading a Barbarossa survives and centralizes timeline before, so I look forward to one if you're intending to write it :p
This soundslike an awsome if unlikely timeline
 

Deleted member 1487

I know this does against the title of having the Hohenstaufens do this, but how about we go earlier to Otto the Great and just not have him marry Adelaide if Italy in 951, say she ends up being forced to marry Berengar II and he ends up as King of Italy and Otto remains north of the Alps as King of Germany, which he pretty much was by right of conquest by that point. He had basically created a dynasty and hereditary monarchy in Germany and it was just his move south of the Alps that caused the HRE mess to start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor#Consolidation_of_power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany

Just have Otto focus on something else like Bohemia and he ends up creating Germany as a Kingdom like France would become, but in 951 instead:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor#Consolidation_of_power
Consolidation of power

The decade between 941 and 951 is marked by Otto's exercise of undisputed domestic power. Through the subordination of the dukes under his authority, Otto asserted his power to make decisions without their prior agreement. He deliberately ignored the claims and ranks of the nobility, who wanted dynastic succession in the assignment of office, by freely appointing individuals of his choice to the kingdom's offices. Loyalty to Otto, not lineage, was the pathway towards advancement under his rule. His mother Matilda disapproved of this policy and was accused by Otto's royal advisers of undermining his authority. After Otto briefly exiled her to her Westphalian manors at Enger in 947, Matilda was brought back to court at the urging of his wife Eadgyth.


The nobility found it difficult to adapt to Otto, as the kingdom had never before followed individual succession to the throne. Whereas tradition dictated that all the sons of the former king were to receive a portion of the kingdom, Henry's succession plan placed Otto at the head of a united kingdom at the expense of his brothers. Otto's authoritarian style was in stark contrast to that of his father. Henry had purposely waived Church anointment at coronation as a symbol of his election by his people and governing his kingdom on the basis of "friendship pacts" (Latin: amicitia). Henry regarded the kingdom as a confederation of duchies and saw himself as a first among equals. Instead of seeking to administer the kingdom through royal representatives, as Charlemagne had done, Henry allowed the dukes to maintain complete internal control of their holdings as long as his superior status was recognized. Otto, on the other hand, had accepted Church anointment and regarded his kingdom as a feudal monarchy with himself holding the "divine right" to rule it, allowing him to reign without concern for the internal hierarchy of the various kingdoms' noble families.


This new policy ensured Otto's position as undisputed master of the kingdom. Members of his family and other aristocrats who rebelled against Otto were forced to publicly confess their guilt and unconditionally surrender to him, hoping for a pardon from their king. For nobles and other high-ranking officials, Otto's punishments were typically mild and the punished were usually restored to a position of authority afterwards. His brother, Henry, rebelled twice and was pardoned twice after his surrenders. He was even appointed as Duke of Lorraine and later Duke of Bavaria. Rebellious commoners were treated far more harshly, as Otto usually had them executed.[29]


Otto continued to reward loyal vassals for their service throughout his tenure as king. Although appointments were still gained and held at his discretion, they were increasingly intertwined with dynastic politics. Where Henry relied upon "friendship pacts", Otto relied upon family ties. Otto refused to accept uncrowned rulers as his equal. Under Otto, the integration of important vassals took place through marriage connections. King Louis IV of France had married Otto's sister, Gerberga of Saxony in 939, and Otto's son Liudolf had married Ida, the daughter of Hermann I, Duke of Swabia in 947. The former dynastically tied the royal house of West Francia to that of East Francia, and the latter secured his son's succession to the Duchy of Swabia as Hermann had no sons. Otto's plans came to fruition when, in 950, Liudolf became Duke of Swabia, and in 954 Otto's nephew Lothair of France became King of France.


In 944, Otto appointed Conrad the Red as Duke of Lorraine and brought him into his extended family through his marriage to Otto's daughter Liutgarde in 947. A Salian Frank by birth, Conrad was a nephew of former king Conrad I of Germany. Following the death of Otto's uncle Berthold, Duke of Bavaria in 947, Otto satisfied his brother Henry's ambition through his marriage to Judith of Bavaria, daughter of Arnulf, Duke of Bavaria, and appointed him as the new Duke of Bavaria in 948. This arrangement finally achieved peace between the brothers as Henry thereafter abandoned his claims to the throne. Through his familial ties to the dukes, Otto had strengthened the sovereignty of the crown and the overall cohesiveness of the kingdom.[30]


On 29 January 946, Eadgyth died suddenly at the age of 35, and Otto buried his wife in the Cathedral of Magdeburg.[31] The union had lasted sixteen years and produced two children; with Eadgyth's death, Otto began to make arrangements for his succession. Like his father before him, Otto intended to transfer sole rule of the kingdom to his son Liudolf upon his death. Otto called together all leading figures of the kingdom and had them swear an oath of allegiance to Liudolf, thereby promising to recognize his sole claim to the throne as Otto's heir apparent.[32]
Liudolf would be the start of the Ottonian dynasty of Germany that could last for a good long while and establish the hereditary monarchy of the Kingdom of Germany.

Otto and the German Church

Beginning in the 950s, Otto changed his internal policy and began to use the Catholic Church as a tool of his dominance. He increasingly associated himself with the Church and his "divine right" to rule the kingdom, viewing himself as the protector of the Church. As a key element of this change in domestic structures, Otto sought to strengthen ecclesiastical authorities, chiefly bishops and abbots at the expense of the secular nobility who threatened his power. Otto controlled the various bishops and abbots by investing them with the symbols of their offices, both spiritual and secular, so the clerics were appointed as his vassals through a commendation ceremony. Historian Norman Cantor concludes: "Under these conditions clerical election became a mere formality in the Ottonian empire, and the king filled up the ranks of the episcopate with his own relatives and with his loyal chancery clerks, who were also appointed to head the great German monasteries."[65]


The most prominent member of this blended royal-ecclesiastical service was his own brother Bruno the Great, Otto's Chancellor since 940, who was appointed as Archbishop of Cologne and Duke of Lorraine in 953. Other important religious officials within Otto's government included Archbishop William of Mainz (Otto's illegitimate son), Archbishop Adaldag of Bremen, and Hadamar, the Abbot of Fulda. Otto endowed the bishoprics and abbeys of his kingdom with numerous gifts, including land and royal prerogatives, such as the power to levy taxes and to maintain an army. Over these Church lands, secular authorities had neither the power of taxation nor legal jurisdiction. This raised the Church above the various dukes and committed its clerics to serve as the king's personal vassals. In order to support the Church, Otto made tithing mandatory for all inhabitants of Germany.


Otto granted the various bishops and abbots of the kingdom the rank of count as well as the legal rights of counts within their territory. Because Otto personally appointed all bishops and abbots, these reforms strengthened his central authority, and the upper ranks of the German Church functioned in some respect as an arm of the royal bureaucracy. Otto routinely appointed his personal court chaplains to bishop positions throughout the kingdom. While attached to the royal court, the chaplains would perform the work of the government through services to the royal chancery. After years within the royal court, Otto would reward their service with promotion to a diocese.
Again all stuff France would do and he had by 955 a centralized kingdom all set up with the power vested in a strong, centralized monarchy. Without the Italian campaign Liudolf couldn't be estranged from his father and would remain heir, keeping the dynasty together and strong.
 
Without Italy,there's no HRE.So any argument that the HRE shouldn't get Italy if it wants to centralize is like a chicken and egg question.
 
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