"Hoc voluimus!"

March 17, 45 BC
Munda, Hispania


I.

Worn down by thirty minutes' hand-to-hand combat without pause, the two armies' battle lines drew back from one another. In between them, the stink of death and the screams of the dying were ignored as the armies paused. No decision had been reached yet.

As the legionaries of the Pompeian army's left paused to catch their breath, a certain Mamercus thought about uprooting a javelin that had lodged itself in the coarse Spanish turf. In most of the worlds which split off from this point, he dismissed this idea as being unnecessary; he needed to conserve his energy for when the lines came together once more. In those in which he did pick up the javelin, he often had second thoughts about spending so much of his precious energy in throwing it before drawing his sword and coming to grips with Caesar's legionaries. When he did throw it, he often missed the brightly-armored officer who had run to the front of his line to encourage his soldiers. Sometimes the officer warded off the javelin with his shield. But in one world, the one which we examine, Mamercus' javelin was thrown perfectly, and it ran through the neck of Gaius Julius Caesar, who fell forward and breathed his final breath into the blood-spattered Spanish earth.

- - -

II.

Tens of thousands of Roman dead littered the slopes before Munda. The sun was about to set. Gnaeus Pompeius and a few of his trusted officers walked among the dead of the Tenth Legion, Caesar's favorite, which had fought and died almost to a man. Another cluster of officers had formed a circle ahead; reportedly the body of the conqueror of Pompey and Scipio lay there.

Gnaeus tripped over a body. He swore, then spat on the dead legionary. He laughed. "Hoc voluimus!" ("We wanted this!")

- - -

III.

The staff officer entered Gnaeus Pompeius' tent. Perhaps he would be rewarded for the good news he brought, though he doubted it. The father's generosity had not been handed down to his son.

The general was relaxing on a couch in his tunic. A scribe was seated at a desk in the midst of writing a letter, probably to some politician. The young general looked up at him as if exasperated. "What is it?"

"General, the auxiliaries have captured a prisoner of noble blood. He was fleeing on horseback, but the Spaniards overtook him and killed his companions. They seek a reward."

"Who is he?"

"He is Gaius Octavius."

"Caesar's nephew?"

"The same."

Gnaeus thought for a moment before deciding. I am living proof that it is unwise to leave a great man's progeny alive! "Kill him at once."

- - -

What do you think would happen if Caesar was killed (and therefore, presumably) defeated at Munda by the two sons of Pompey? The battle was one of the most hard-fought of Caesar's career, and afterward he said it was the only time he had been forced to fight for his life, as opposed to simply for a victory. Octavian was present, too, so to cut a few things short I have him captured and executed right after the battle.

Any thoughts? Can Caesar's relatively few close associates muster enough support to fight Pompey's sons if they march to Italy? Gnaeus was considered a vengeful, nasty fellow, so if he is in power at Rome, we could see something similar to Sulla's proscriptions. This bodes ill for those who either never took sides in the war, or who switched to Caesar without too much compulsion (like Cicero).
 
Interesting.

Is Mark Anthony still alive? He seems to me the only remaining Caesarian able to take command. I assume he was in Rome at the time.
 
Ah. I like.

Go on. I'd like to see the optimates deal with the pressures of Empire.
 
Interesting.

Is Mark Anthony still alive? He seems to me the only remaining Caesarian able to take command. I assume he was in Rome at the time.

Yes, he is alive, and almost by default he will have to do as the leader of Caesar's "faction".

Ah. I like.

Go on. I'd like to see the optimates deal with the pressures of Empire.

The concerning/interesting thing is just how few there are left at this point, and given Pompey the Younger's nature, there are likely to be very few indeed on his return to Rome.
 
i assume this means Rome never takes Gaul, and therefore never takes Britain. at least not as soon as they did.
 
Ach! Caesar and Octavius killed...:eek:

Time for Pompeian Empire? Surviving of the Republic? Split of the Republic? :D

I'm really melodrammatic... anyway, i subscribe ;)
 
Actors, and their locations on March 18, 45 BC. Any ideas for what is most likely to happen?

POMPEIANS

Cnaeus Pompeius (Pompey the Younger)
Eldest son of Pompeius Magnus, overall commander of thirteen victorious but bloodied legions at Munda in Spain.

Publius Atius Varus (Varus)
General of high rank within the Pompeian army at Munda.

Titus Atius Labienus (Labienus)
Former lieutenant of Caesar's in the Gallic Wars, commander of the Pompeian cavalry at Munda.

Sextus Pompeius (Sextus Pompey)
Second son of Pompeius Magnus, general of the garrison at Corduba in Spain.

Quintus Caecilius Bassus (Bassus)
Commander of the legion or two in Syria which had mutinied in 47 BC against its commander, Sextus Julius Caesar (famous Julius' relative), killed him, and declared its support for the Pompeians. Currently cornered in Apamea.

CAESARIANS


Marcus Aemilius Lepidus (Lepidus)
In OTL, the future triumvir. At this point, probably the non-Antony option as leader of the Caesarians. Currently Master of the Horse (second-in-command) under the dictator Caesar, who is now unfortunately dead. Masters of the Horse were supposed to lose power if the dictator died, but as commander of a legion-sized force outside Rome and the senior Caesarian, he will probably be master of Rome for a time. Whether he shares that mastery or keeps it is something else entirely.

Marcus Antonius (Mark Antony)
You know who this is. At this point, he was not in Caesar's good graces for behaving rashly in Caesar's absence, and so had no magistracy. He is, however, Caesar's political heir, and once he gets his hands on Caesar's will (a distinct possibility), the now-dead Octavius could make a complete disappearance, and he could try to rally the other Caesarians around him. I think the next thing I have to figure out is whether he and Lepidus will unite, or whether one will beat down the other.

Lucius Munatius Plancus (Plancus) (?)
The ancient Talleyrand, though he didn't earn the reputation until later. An officer of Caesar's, currently proconsul over all of Transalpine Gaul, in command of three legions.

Publius Vatinius (Vatinius)
Served Caesar as a legate in Gaul, as a negotiator with Pompey prior to start of Civil War, and as a naval commander in the Adriatic. Consul in 47 BC, two years previous. Currently governor in Illyria, commanding (more or less) two legions.

Servius Sulpicius Rufus (Rufus)
Consul in 51 BC, supporter of Caesar in Civil War, currently proconsul in Achaea, unknown number of soldiers under his command.

Rufio
A freedman, one of Caesar's close associates. In command of three legions in Egypt.

Quintus Hortensius (Hortensius) (?)
As best as I can tell, between four to six legions are sitting with no real commander in expectation of Caesar's never-to-occur Parthian campaign that he planned on undertaking in 45 BC before his assassination. As Q. Hortensius appears to be proconsul in Macedonia at this time, I include those soldiers under his name.

Marcus Apuleius (Apuleius)
Quaestor and de facto governor of Asia, commander of one or two legions.

Caius Antistius Vetus (Vetus)
Caesar's general in Syria fighting Bassus (quaestor-in-Syria). Currently has him cornered in Apamea with an army of unknown size.

UNKNOWN LOYALTIES

Lots of people. Former Pompeians who have gone over to Caesar, such as Cicero, Cassius, and Brutus all belong here. In a letter to Cassius about Cnaeus Pompeius, Cicero wrote:

"Now to return to matters affecting the Republic, report what's happening in Spain. I am really worried by this, and would rather stick with old clement master [Caesar] than have a new and cruel one. You know how fatuous Cnaeus is; you know how he mistakes cruelty for courage, and how he thinks we always mock him. I am afraid he'll reap our wit with the sword in peasant fashion."

DEAD AT MUNDA OR ABOUT TO BE DEAD RIGHT AFTER MUNDA

Julius Caesar
Octavian (OTL Augustus)
Marcus Agrippa
P. Cornelius Dolabella
Q. Fabius Maximus
Gaius Trebonius
G. Caninius Rebilus
G. Asinius Pollio
(Others I'm missing?)
 
Sullan-style proscriptions, perhaps, given the OTL nature of the sons of Pompey. I'd love to see how Cleopatra in Egypt deals with this, given that her protector and lover is dead: will the Pompeians conquer Egypt and use the ensuing wealth to build their popularity with the mob? Or will the Caesarean operation become bankrolled by the Queen? Either way, I can see Ptolemaic resources quickly becoming very important in any struggle.

EDIT: Also, Gaul may break off entirely- wasn't there a fairly major Gallic revolt under the Second Triumvirate? If the Romans continue fighting throughout the 40s BC, it wouldn't surprise me to see the province at least temporarily abandoned.
 
Cnaeus Pompeius and Labienus entered in Narbonense Gaul while Gallia Comata without Caesar revolted again: i think it will become a Gallo-Roman state.

Plancus with only three legions or retreat to Italy or at least tried to defend the Alpine accesses, or maybe moved to Gallia Comata, to suppress or foment the revolt.

Antony recalled many legions to the East, but many or defected or fought their own war.

So for now i guess the Pompiains have the initiative.
 
Sullan-style proscriptions, perhaps, given the OTL nature of the sons of Pompey. I'd love to see how Cleopatra in Egypt deals with this, given that her protector and lover is dead: will the Pompeians conquer Egypt and use the ensuing wealth to build their popularity with the mob? Or will the Caesarean operation become bankrolled by the Queen? Either way, I can see Ptolemaic resources quickly becoming very important in any struggle.

If the Pompeys get into Rome, I can imagine that something similar to the proscriptions would occur rather rapidly to anyone left in Rome. However, who would stay in Rome to find out how merciful Cnaeus would be? Someone like Cicero might be oblivious enough to hope for the best, but I would think people who were in Caesar's camp would flee...but to where? The legions in Macedonia, perhaps?

Cleopatra, interestingly enough, seems to have been fairly amenable to an agreement with Pompey before his death at the hands of Ptolemy's advisers. Do you all think it likely that she (and Egypt) would be punished for her dalliance with Caesar, or would she cut a deal ASAP with the Optimates in order to keep her life and throne? There is a VERY interesting situation regarding her two year old son Caesarion, isn't there!

EDIT: Also, Gaul may break off entirely- wasn't there a fairly major Gallic revolt under the Second Triumvirate? If the Romans continue fighting throughout the 40s BC, it wouldn't surprise me to see the province at least temporarily abandoned.

Gaul was thrashed by Caesar. An estimated 20% of its population was killed or sold into slavery. I don't recall a major Gallic revolt. From an admittedly extremely casual trawl, I can only find information on a brief uprising in Aquitania in 37 BC which was quickly crushed. The next one of note seems to have been in 21 AD. I don't see an uprising taking place, unless I'm missing something rather huge.

Cnaeus Pompeius and Labienus entered in Narbonense Gaul while Gallia Comata without Caesar revolted again: i think it will become a Gallo-Roman state.

I should clarify: Plancus is in Gallia Comata with those legions! I wonder if he and the Pompeians would ignore one another? His later switching of sides in the first civil war doesn't necessarily mean he would switch at this time, but if he has troops in Belgium and Aquitania and on the Rhine, perhaps the Pompeians just march through Narbonense unmolested?

Plancus with only three legions or retreat to Italy or at least tried to defend the Alpine accesses, or maybe moved to Gallia Comata, to suppress or foment the revolt.

Informal poll! Which seems more likely: for him to take one or two legions to try and hold at some place like Narbo or Massilia; to cross the Alps and try to combine with, say, Vatinius and whatever Lepidus and/or Antony can scrounge up; to stay in Gallia Comata, and pretend like nothing is happening (maybe cross or prepare to cross the Rhine to "punish" some Germans briefly and see how things play out)?

Antony recalled many legions to the East, but many or defected or fought their own war.

Antony fleeing to the East on his own volition is a distinct possibility, especially as (IIRC) in OTL he commanded the respect and allegiance of the legions in Macedonia rapidly after Caesar's death.

Does anyone think he and Lepidus have a power struggle, with one or the other killing or sidelining the other, or agree to help one another, with perhaps Lepidus joining Vatinius and/or Plancus in Cisalpine Gaul, and Antony crossing the Adriatic to muster back the Macedonian legions?

So for now i guess the Pompiains have the initiative.

I agree. A Pompeian march with most of their 13 legions (say eight, with the others left behind to solidify Hispania and/or perhaps a few with Sextus to make a foray into Africa against an opposition which I haven't been able to narrow down) through Narbo on the way to Rome to settle accounts seems very likely.
 
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Regarding Lepidus and Anthony, OTL they initially united against Octavian, then formed the Second Triumvirate versus the Liberatores (Cassius, Brutus and the others). So I think they'll be pragmatic enough to cooperate versus the Pompeians.
 
I agree that they would make for Italy as soon as they can, so Lepidus better prepare. Meanwhile, the Cesarian generals would have to start negotiating with each other if they want to mount a credible opposition to Pompey.

I think Egypt would be attractive to both as an ally, and Cleopatra would probably communicate with both. Pompey may be a long-term threat, but the Casearians probably have enough troops to force her to comply in the immediate future.
 
Does anyone think he and Lepidus have a power struggle, with one or the other killing or sidelining the other, or agree to help one another, with perhaps Lepidus joining Vatinius and/or Plancus in Cisalpine Gaul, and Antony crossing the Adriatic to muster back the Macedonian legions?

Fight each other. I want to see the Republic more smashed by civil war.
 
Regarding Lepidus and Anthony, OTL they initially united against Octavian, then formed the Second Triumvirate versus the Liberatores (Cassius, Brutus and the others). So I think they'll be pragmatic enough to cooperate versus the Pompeians.

I think they will, too. I was wrong about the legions in Macedonia, so they pretty much get to play hide-and-seek with the Pompeians (as the Pompeians had before) and have all of their control in Rome ruined by abandoning it and fleeing to the East, or stand with what they have. In my amateur judgment, neither seems like they would run off without a fight for Rome.

I agree that they would make for Italy as soon as they can, so Lepidus better prepare. Meanwhile, the Cesarian generals would have to start negotiating with each other if they want to mount a credible opposition to Pompey.

The problem is whether or not they can respond quickly enough. On the plus side, Caesar disbanded a bunch of legions in Italy before he left, and these could be reformed in time, though perhaps not with the same effectiveness as they would have had fighting under Caesar or with a good deal of preparation. On the negative side, there wasn't a significant force in Macedonia at this juncture (my earlier post about legions in Macedonia was based on 44 BC data, which is after Caesar reformed his disbanded legions), so they have to make do with what's in Italy, Gaul, and Illyria. I figure that if Vatinius hustles back from Illyria, which I think is fairly doable, he can unite with Antony and Lepidus for somewhere in the neighborhood of six to eight legions.

I think Egypt would be attractive to both as an ally, and Cleopatra would probably communicate with both. Pompey may be a long-term threat, but the Casearians probably have enough troops to force her to comply in the immediate future.

I agree. Rufio is a supporter of Caesar, and a freedman, so he can't be promised anything by the Pompeians. For now three Caesarian legions in Egypt will keep her quiet. I wonder how much a young queen with political power in the East, a suddenly-dead lover, and his two-year old son in the royal nursery will be emotionally affected if Rome is lost and any surviving Caesarians rally to the East.

Fight each other. I want to see the Republic more smashed by civil war.

Oh, that's happening no matter what.

* * *
I'll give a tentative outline of the next few months.

It took Caesar from March to June to get to Spain from Brundisium on his first Spanish campaign, and he didn't have to recuperate from a major battle and settle accounts along the way. Let's say that C/Gnaeus, Labienus, and Varus wrap the slaughter of Caesar's surviving legions up or accept their surrenders by the end of April. That means that the Pompeians march for Italy in May. At this point, there's a slight probability that Plancus could have hustled and moved into a blocking position either in the Pyrenees or at Narbo, but let's say that like most people confronted with such a fluid position, he vacillates a little and just sends a legion to hold Massilia, where, incidentally enough, Brutus of OTL assassination fame has a fleet. Let us further say that the Pompeians decide to pass by, instead of sitting down into a siege of a relatively unimportant city. Their supply lines are harried, both by Plancus' troops in the city and perhaps reinforcements from further north, as well as Brutus' fleet. As a result, it isn't until early August that the Pompeians stumble across the Alps and into Cisalpine Gaul.

This gives Lepidus and Antony time enough to negotiate things. Lepidus' position as Master of the Horse was supposed to "disappear" upon the death of a dictator, but he didn't give it up in OTL until he cut a deal with Antony. Antony's the "ideological" favorite of most of the popular party, and when news of Caesar's death arrives, he hustles down to the Vestal Virgins, grabs Caesar's will, and (what a coincidence) discovers that he has been named Caesar's heir (many thought he was at this time, including Antony!). Lepidus has the troops, Antony has the popular support, so they quickly cut a deal that will make as many people as happy as possible. Lepidus doesn't have the clout to just put himself in Caesar's place, so let's say that the two of them are the only people that appear on a hasty ballot for suffect (replacement) consuls, and they are duly elected.

Lepidus and Antony recall the just-disbanded legions that Caesar had left in Italy after his triumph. After garrisons, and perhaps dispatches to places like Sicily and Africa, in case of a Pompeian attack there, they have four legions to use. The two consuls march up to join Vatinius, who takes two of his three legions (leaving one behind as a garrison) from Illyria; they meet somewhere near the mouth of the Po in early August.

This leaves us with a climactic contest in northern Italy in the late summer of 45 BC between Pompey the Younger, Varus, and Labienus on the one side against Lepidus, Antony, and Vatinius. Both sides are fairly evenly matched. The Pompeians are slightly more numerous (8 v. 6 legions), have the victory at Munda under their belts, but have been on campaign since the year began. The "Caesarians" are mostly veterans of Caesar's many, many victories, but are less numerous, perhaps slightly sullen at being called up early, and without their "invincible" leader.

Does this setup seem plausible?

So, who do you think wins the battle? Does anyone have a preference? It would be more "different" for a Pompeian victory, but how many Lepidus-and-Antony-go-it-alone TLs are out there? I'm considering doing a rough wargame of the battle if opinion is divided.
 
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