HMS Invincible

[jsb]

The main problem I see is that Battleships guns still ruled till start of the 40s so in 1922 you have 20 years till they can be main weapons of a fleet.

If you are allowed G3 CVs you are probably allowed G3s BCs (BBs) as well.

(on a small design point I would cut the belt, unless you need it for stability or strength CVs should not be in gun range and they will die quickly if they are due to fire above, so 12' belt is near pointless, just go with something to stop 8' CA guns and a nice deck for bombs and 8' guns)

 

[Lord Wyclif]

By reducing the belt armour thickness by 1/7th, removal of the heavy main gun turrets permits a lower displacement. The hanger armour protection raises the centre of gravity so kept a very thick belt & underwater protection to keep the centre of gravity low. My calculations gave 39,400 ton standard displacement in this configuration. Though well over the permitted 33,000 using the American escape route for additional protection & cheating we could just hide the truth.
British, Japanese and American delegates met in Geneva 1927 without agreement we could see a push to get the recommended carrier displacement raised to 35,000 for the London Agreement letting every one build a few more big carriers.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

No Nelson & Rodney as yet. Trying to keep RN BB's with 15" main guns. Will back date to 1924 to build 4 CVL,s under 10,000 tons Vengeance, Venerable, Victorious and a new Vindictive. Fleet carriers, Invincible, Illustrious, Eagle and Furious. 1930 London Treaty to be changed due to more RNAS with RN.

The real battleship force after the Washington Treaty was 20 ships made up of Nelson and Rodney, 5 Queen Elizabeths, 5 R class, 4 Iron Dukes and 4 battlecruisers (Hood, Repulse, Renown and Tiger). There was also Centurion disarmed as a target ship and one of the other superdreadnoughts demilitarlized as a gunnery training ship.

Is your battleship force the same as above less Nelson and Rodney?

 

[Lord Wyclif]

Centurion & Ajax are officially with the fleet until the construction of L3/KGV class with 15" guns. Orders to be placed 1928. L3 had 4 twin 18" & KGV plan had 3 triple 15" in 1928. Trying just to concentrate on Invincible though.

 

[jsb]

Centurion & Ajax are officially with the fleet until the construction of L3/KGV class with 15" guns. Orders to be placed 1928. L3 had 4 twin 18" & KGV plan had 3 triple 15" in 1928. Trying just to concentrate on Invincible though.

But L3 is 49,000t if you can build this why not a full G3 ? (and treaty's are dead or at least very weak)

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

By reducing the belt armour thickness by 1/7th, removal of the heavy main gun turrets permits a lower displacement. The hanger armour protection raises the centre of gravity so kept a very thick belt & underwater protection to keep the centre of gravity low. My calculations gave 39,400 ton standard displacement in this configuration. Though well over the permitted 33,000 using the American escape route for additional protection & cheating we could just hide the truth.
British, Japanese and American delegates met in Geneva 1927 without agreement we could see a push to get the recommended carrier displacement raised to 35,000 for the London Agreement letting every one build a few more big carriers.

The problem with this is that the aim of the real Geneva Conference was for a further reduction in the quantity and quality of the World's armaments, not to increase them. Aside from the economic slup of the 1920, which was to turn into the economic depression of the 1930s, the UK was spending over £300 million a year paying the interest on the National Debt. On top of that the British Governments of the era really did want to preserve peace through general disarmament and collective security. At one of the Geneva conferences the British Delegation was told that if anything, they had disarmed too much.

 

[Lord Wyclif]

But L3 is 49,000t if you can build this why not a full G3 ? (and treaty's are dead or at least very weak)

Am trying to build a class of BB's with a transom stern, for better high speed, as in L3 & G3 design but within the limits of Washington 35,000 tons using three triple 15" mountings. (Ships are currently design in progress occupying slips, much to the annoyance of navy, who really want the ships and the treasury who are paying for them).

 

[Lord Wyclif]

The problem with this is that the aim of the real Geneva Conference was for a further reduction in the quantity and quality of the World's armaments, not to increase them. Aside from the economic slup of the 1920, which was to turn into the economic depression of the 1930s, the UK was spending over £300 a year paying the interest on the National Debt. On top of that the British Governments of the era really did want to preserve peace through general disarmament and collective security. At one of the Geneva conferences the British Delegation was told that if anything, they had disarmed too much.

Agreed the British are wanting an excuse not to complete the new BB's & get rid of their obsolete BB's but the Americans and the Japanese are not really into cricket, much to the delight of the British Admirals who want their big gun BB's.

 

[merlin]

snip ...
3 of 10,000 tons for trade protection in narrow seas. These used the loophole in the Washington Treaty that allowed unlimited construction of aircraft carriers that displaced less than 10,000 tons each.
... snip

So converting the sister cruisers and a full conversion of Vindictive wouldn't affect to tonnage limit!

See we are on the same wave-length

 

[Some Bloke]

Of course the cruisers will need to be replaced.

 

[Some Bloke]

IIRC the Courageous class could field 48 planes.
Were talking closer to the 60 mark here, right?

 

[Zheng He]

IIRC the Courageous class could field 48 planes.
Were talking closer to the 60 mark here, right?

48 planes in 1930 or 48 planes in 1940?

 

[PMN1]

How about some aircraft carrying mail steamers....

From the Warships1 board, can't remember who

[FONT=&quot]This originally is suppose to have come from the publication “Transactions of the Institution of Naval Architects” Mar 1923 and was proposed by Eustace d’Eyncourt who was the British “Director of Naval Construction” from 1912 to 1923. According to Friedman’s “US Aircraft Carriers” there was a somewhat similar US proposal in 1928 for a 980-foot high speed North Atlantic liner. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

The British proposal was for a 600/80/28 foot, 24 knot mail packet capable of carrying 80% of the first and second class and 40% of the third class passengers of the Mauritania for such routes as the

GB to NY with aircraft delivering mail to Canada on route

GB to Australia with aircraft delivering mail to Egypt and India on route

Vancouver to Hong Kong or Australia.

No armament was mentioned though it did say it could carry either 18 Sopwith Cuckoos or 21 Parnall Panthers or 21 Nieuport Night Hawks.

The mast was said to be not a problem because aircraft took off quickly but if it did become a problem an alternate folding mast and derrick was proposed. Bulges were fitted to protect against “icebergs”. The boilers being exhausted out the stern would probably be a problem since it ran right above the First Class lounge and I doubt that people would pay to get overheated. If you notice the B deck amidships is dedicated to lifeboats so I am wondering if during war time the deck could be removed and combined with C deck to create a midship hanger to double the amount of aircraft carried?

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[/FONT] [/FONT]

 

[Lord Wyclif]

Saturday August 10th 1928 Admiral Sir Fredrick Field Commander in Chief of the Mediterranean Fleet hoisted his flag on the battleship HMS Queen Elizabeth as she sailed out of Gibraltar. Andrew Cunningham took the Invincible on her last cruise before she was due to return to Blighty for her first refit. The two were joined by three cruisers and five destroyers as the sailed east. Vinny had onboard two flights of Fairley IIIF's, three flights of Fairley Flycatchers and two trial Dart fighter bombers from Hawker. Averaging 15knots they sighted Alexandria on the following Thursday evening.
Admiral Fields received a signal not to enter the harbour, but to proceed with haste towards Tel Aviv. During the night they were joined by the light carrier Victorious and two more destroyers who had steamed up from the Red Sea.
Trouble was brewing in Jerusalem. Jeremiah Halperm had led a protest march to the Wailing Wall, though there was a heavy police presence more confrontations were expected.
Friday morning saw a flight of four Supermarine Southamptons land beside the Victorious, pick up Royal Marines and transfer them ashore. Morning prayers over Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini led an Islamic protest parade to the Wall. Flycatchers and IIIF's from Invincible flew over head during the day, but without being involved in any incidents. Rolls Royce armoured cars and Morris armoured patrol cars of the Royal Navy Armoured Car Squadron attached to 11 Royal Marines were unloaded and made haste towards Jerusalem.
Invincible remained on station during the following week with her air group flying regular sorties over the Jerusalem region.
The following Friday the shooting started. Avro Bison fighter/bombers maned by Royal Marines from the Victorious flew strafing runs over Arab insurgents attacking the Temple Mount. Two small explosives were dropped before the mob dispersed.
Saturday witnessed the Hebron Massacre. A troop of armoured marines were given aerial support by a flight of Flycatchers from Invincible. They arrived to late to be active but their presence pacified both sections of the community.
Flycatchers flew support sorties in Nablus and Jaffa and though several shooting took place no Royal Naval personnel were involved.
Monday saw further incidents and again the Invincible's aircraft flew recc missions and two Flycatchers conducted strafing runs. More bloodshed occurred on the Wednesday in Safed. Police backed up by Royal Marines moved in on the ground whilst air support was provided by Flycatchers from Invincible.
Friday and Saturday passed without any further trouble and finally the Marines were stood down. Royal Navy IIIF's continued airborne surveillance for several more days. September 1st saw the flotilla return to Alexandria for debrief.
During the debate in the House of Commons, later in the month, Winston Churchill passed a remark to Leo Amery comparing the actions of the Royal Marines to the Boer Kommandoes describing the Victorious as a Commando Carrier. The name stuck.

 

[Lord Wyclif]

OVER VIEW OF EVENTS OF THE 1920's.

By 1920 the Royal Navy had been reduced to the following:-
Capital ships
46,700T Hood 8x15"
29,000T Royal Sovereign, Revenge, Royal Oak, Resolution,Ramilies. 8x15"
28,500T Tiger 8x13.5"
27,200T Renown, Repulse 8x15"
27,500T Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Valiant, Barham, Malaya. 8x15"
25,000T Iron Duke, Marlborough, Benbow, Empress of India. 10x13.5"
23,500T King George V, Centurion, Ajax 10x13.5"
19,200T Conqueror, Glorious 4x15"
Plus the Planned 4x G3 & 4xN4 designs giving at total of 24 + 8.
Aircraft carriers
Argus, Hermes, Eagle, Furious, Vindictive with the NRAS operating a total of 105 aeroplanes, carrier borne, seaplanes and land based maritime reconnaissance and fleet aerial defence flights. 10 non rigid and 3 rigid airships.


In the Washington Treaty of 1922 all parties agreed to abandon all the capital ships under construction or projected except for nearly completed 16" gun ships of the USA & Japan. The Royal Navy was limited to 20 capital ships = 525,000tons but were permitted to build two new 35,000 ton ships which resulted in an new 'Admiral-class' with 9 (3x3) of the tried and tested 15" guns. (KGV's design with 15"guns 10 years earlier than OTL)

The Royal Marines were reorganised by Admiral Madden into a rapid deployment force to carry out seizure and defence of temporary bases & raids on enemy coastline. The RMLI battalions involved each had a battery of 6 18 pounder guns of the RMA, a squadron of 4 Rolls Royce armoured cars and 8 Morris armoured trucks of the Royal Naval Armoured Car Service and a flight of Fairley Flycatcher fighter bombers of the RNAS piloted by Marine airmen. 1st & 2nd battalions were based in the UK, 4th was in Singapore, 9th in Gibraltar and 11 in the Middle East.

Thus on the eve of the London Naval Conference the Royal Navy's Orbat was
HMS Hood, HMS Tiger, 5 Royal Sovereign class, 5 Queen Elizabeth class, 2 Renown class, 4 Iron Duke class, plus the two new ships Nelson and Rodney. The fleet aircraft carriers Invincible, Illustrious, Eagle and Furious. The light fleet carriers Argus, Hermes and the light carriers Vindictive, Vengeance, Victorious and Venerable. Entering the conference the RN wish list was to replace the Tiger, Renown class and Iron Duke class with a further 7 of the Admiral class BB's and the carriers Argus, Eagle, Furious and Hermes with hopefully 3 more Invincible's. Maritime military aviation to be reduced to 300 aircraft. The RNAS having 216 carrier aircraft, 52 ship launched sea planes and 30 large sea planes totalling 298 aircraft. Cruises & other vessels as per OTL.

 

[Lord Wyclif]

IIRC the Courageous class could field 48 planes.
Were talking closer to the 60 mark here, right?

To coin a more modern phrase "fitted for but not with". These ships could easily operate 5 squadrons, usually when on exercise and adjoining carriers could not recover their air group, they did. However penny pinching they carried a standard 36 aircraft air group.

 

[Lord Wyclif]

The London Naval Treaty, pushed mainly by the Americans and Japanese allowed for construction of new capital ships from 1933 onwards. Displacement was to be limited to 35,000 tons and maximum 16" guns as per Washington. The British tried unsuccessfully to lower the gun size. Aircraft carriers could also be built to this displacement but no aircraft numbers limits were agreed though total tonnage could increase to 160,000 tons for vessels over 10,000 displacement. Cruisers etc as per OTL

The Admiralty with the Treasury's permission ordered only two new Admiral class BB's construction to commence in 1933 and a further modified Invincible. Changes were made to the Island layout (as per jsb post 10) the 8x1 single 4.7" AA being replaced by 8x2 4.5" AA.

The Invincible herself went for a refit from October 1930 to July 1932. Her AA armament being increased with 24 (3x8)Pom poms on the island one aft and one either side of the funnels and 8 (2x4) 0.5" Vickers abreast the bridge. Aircraft handling facilities for 36 Hawker Osprey FSB (fighter,spotting,bomber) aircraft and 12 Blackburn Rippons TSR (torpedo,spotter,reconnaissance) aircraft. Two catapults were added to the bow and the arrestor wires re-arranged.
Returning to the fleet she immediately sailed to join William Fisher's Mediterranean fleet under Captain Alex Ramsey.
Specification F.7/30, which was formally issued to the aircraft industry in October 1931, called for an all-metal day and night fighter armed with four Vickers machine guns allowing for short bursts due to the required top speed of 250mph and high rate of climb, with a landing speed of less than 60 mph.Sidney Camm designed a monoplane version of the Fury in 1933. The P.V.3 made its maiden flight on June 15th 1934.
RJ Mitchell designed the Supermarine Type 224 which first flew on February 19th 1934.
Both these aircraft were tested with the Goshawk engines for the RAF & failed. However William Dickson and Richard Bell Davis were invited to watch their evaluations by Murry Sueter MP and were suitably impressed. When the aircraft were re-engined with the PV-12 their performances were increased by 12.5%.
Deck landing trials were conducted by these new airframes during the Month of August on board HMS Invincible as she cruised between the Azores, Canary Islands and Gibraltar.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

To coin a more modern phrase "fitted for but not with". These ships could easily operate 5 squadrons, usually when on exercise and adjoining carriers could not recover their air group, they did. However penny pinching they carried a standard 36 aircraft air group.

This is a good point For example HMS Ark Royal Never carried her full compliment during her war service due to lack of Aircraft/Pilots - except in this ATL/POD with the NAS/FAA not getting pinched by the RAF we may very probably see a 'more' robust organisation capable of greater expansion than OTL.

 

[Lord Wyclif]

On Thursday November 22nd 1934, a force of 1,000 Ethiopian militia with three Ethiopian military-political commanders arrived near Walwal and formally asked the Dubats garrison of 60 soldiers stationed there to withdraw from the area. The Somali NCO leading the garrison refused to withdraw and alerted Captain Cimmaruta, commander of the garrison of Uarder, 20 km away, to what had happened.

The next day, in the course of surveying the border between British Somaliland and Ethiopia, an Anglo–Ethiopian boundary commission arrived at Walwal. The commission was confronted by a newly arrived Italian force. The British members of the boundary commission protested, but withdrew to avoid an international incident. The Ethiopian members of the boundary commission, however, stayed at Walwal. Sir Arthur Salisbury Lawrence placed troops of the Camel corps and the Bombay Grenadiers on full alert.

Following the shooting at Walwal on Wednesday December 5th elements of 11 Royal Marines in Aden were boarded upon the Victorious for the short journey to British Somalia. 16 hours after boarding the 4 Vickers IIA* and the Vickers IIACS tanks of 11troop Royal Marine Armoured Support Group, along with the 3 Rolls Royce armoured cars and 10 Morris armoured trucks were being off loaded in Berbera. Pairs of Royal Marine Hawker Osprey aircraft from Victorious flew over watch.

HMS Invincible along with the cruiser HMSCeres and the two new destroyers Escapade and Esk entered the Suez Canal on the morning of Friday December 7th en route for Straits of Aden. On board were a flight of 6 of the new Hawker PV3's supplementing the three squadrons of Hawker Ospreys.

During Christmas week one of the Osprey squadrons, 810 used their aeroplanes to develop a new technique demonstrated by Björn Bjuggren of dive bombing. Firstly the sloops Falmouth and Shoreham were targeted and them a small Marine detachment near the lighthouse on the island of Jabal al-Tair.

New year saw the arrival onboard of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, John Allsebrook Simon. Captain Ramsey entertained him and his entourage for two days but being an ex-RFC officer the atmosphere onboard was described as frosty. Due to the ongoing political discussions between the French, Italians and the Ethiopians the RNAS was politely reminded not to 'go sticking their nose in where it wasn't wanted.' Simon then spent a few days with the RAF detachment and was thrilled with the performance of their Hawker Harts in the joint exercises with the Camel Corps, before returning to London.

The Italian destroyer Nazario Sauro began to play cat and mouse with the sloop Falmouth on Sunday January 27th steaming up to her bow and turning sharply forcing her under several waves. Though wind speed was only 15 knots, on such sunny weather this became quite an annoyance to the crew. Monday saw a continuation of this tactic even when the destroyer Esk arrived in support. At sunset on Tuesday they tried the same thing this time almost ramming the stern of the Esk whilst turning away. On the flight deck of the Invincible Flying Officer Baldrick hatched a cunning plan. The idea was greeted with approval by Ramsey.
Wednesday Januaryu 30th began with a re commencement of the dive bombing by 810 squadron on both the Esk and Falmouth, just as the Nazario Sauro reappeared. One of the Ospreys banked off from her diving run flying low over waves. The Italian sailors cheered as they saw the aeroplane appear to be in difficulties. Suddenly one of PV3's swooped out of the sun. Her 4 machine guns blazing as she zoomed over the Italian destroyer and swept above the Osprey. The Italians panicked reporting that they thought they were being hit by a hurricane.

Italian convoys to the port of Massawa were constantly observed by the Invincible's Osprey aircraft and the British government constantly updated of the military build-up in the region during February and March 1935.

 

[Some Bloke]

Flying Officer? The Baldricks are really going up in the world.
I'm just glad this cunning plan didn't involve the galley and the ship's cat.

Wait? you didn't include a young officer named Alberto Bertorelli?

Whadda mistake-a da make-a!