HMS Habbabkuk

The whole purpose of the ice carrier was that we didn’t have planes that could cover the entire Atlantic convoy route with the airbases we had. Some of the supply ships had to go all the way from the Eastern Seabord of the U.S. to Murmansk. The planes we had couldn’t go that far.


The plan was abandoned partially because new long ranged aircraft managed to cover the gap in the Atlantic route.



Why didn’t we build warships the way we built Liberty ships?

Building warships and merchants ships are two different things.
 

CalBear

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The whole purpose of the ice carrier was that we didn’t have planes that could cover the entire Atlantic convoy route with the airbases we had. Some of the supply ships had to go all the way from the Eastern Seabord of the U.S. to Murmansk. The planes we had couldn’t go that far.


Neither would the Habbabkuk. It was not capable of that sort of range OR speed. A CVE, however, could and did make that run as the war progressed, beginning in September of 1942.



Why didn’t we build warships the way we built
Liberty ships?


To a rather surprising degree, we did. The U.S launched 175 Fletcher Class destroyers in just over two years, or roughly one every four days & 58 Sumner class DD's (and 12 Smith class DD/ML) in two years or one every 10 days. The U.S. launched FIFTY Casablanca class escort carriers in an 18 month period (that's one hitting the water every eight days or so, on average). Even the Cleveland class cruisers were cranked out at a pace of eight a year with the 24 Essex class fleet carriers being constructed in less than five years. While this is no where near the speed that Liberty Ships were cranked out, it is still a rather stunning pace.
 
For anyone wondering what this is all about here's the wikipedia site about Habakkuk and its inventor Geoffrey Pyke.


About the bath/gunshot incident: those articles say it was Lord Mountbatten who threw it Churchill's bath (although that is stated as a possibly exagerated after dinner story). In a separate incident, Mountbatten fired a gun at the stuff during a demonstration, slightly wounding Admiral King with the ricochet (although that is unsourced).
 

flaja

Banned
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The plan was abandoned partially because new long ranged aircraft managed to cover the gap in the Atlantic route.

What aircraft did the Allies use? Where were the land bases that they used? When were these aircraft first used?

Building warships and merchants ships are two different things.

I’m talking about pre-fab and assembly-line fashion. We build Liberty Ships
 

flaja

Banned
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Neither would the Habbabkuk. It was not capable of that sort of range OR speed.

The Habbabkuk could have been stationed somewhat permanently at sea to give us an airbase in a place beyond the range of land-based aircraft. It didn’t need to move about to do battle the way a regular carrier needed to. The Habbabkuk didn’t have to follow a convoy. All it had to do was be stationed where the range of its aircraft would overlap the range of land-based aircraft so the convoy was never without air protection.
 
What aircraft did the Allies use? Where were the land bases that they used? When were these aircraft first used?


The B-24 Liberator. Introduced in 1941, but the B-24J version and was used to close the gap in April, 1943. It had a combat range of 2,100mi, which means the allies can use pre-existing airbases in Newfoundland, Iceland, and and Britain to cover the gap.

I’m talking about pre-fab and assembly-line fashion. We build Liberty Ships

So your talking about the first part of the construction or are you talking about making warships in a asembly line fashion:confused:
 

flaja

Banned
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The B-24 Liberator. Introduced in 1941, but the B-24J version and was used to close the gap in April, 1943. It had a combat range of 2,100mi, which means the allies can use pre-existing airbases in Newfoundland, Iceland, and and Britain to cover the gap.

Would these bases be operational the year-round? What about the winter months?

Chances are the main reason why the Allies managed to neutralize the U-boats is that the Allies broke Germany’s secret code that was used to send orders to the U-boats. We knew where the U-boats were going to be before they got there.

So your talking about the first part of the construction or are you talking about making warships in a asembly line fashion:confused:


Your or You’re?

I am talking about assembly lines. The components of the Liberty Ships were often made at locations far from the ocean. The components were then sent to shipyards for assembly.
 
Henry Kaiser was a near genius and his techniques for pre-fabrication and mass production of ships was a radically new concept for the times. Shipbuilding just wasn't done that way and it took a while for other builders to catch on. It must also be understood that building warships is an entirely different process. They have to be built to much tighter tolerances and with much stricter controls, heavier structures, increased redundancy of systems, etc. They are less adaptable to mass production with the manufacturing technology of the 1940's. However, as CalBear did point out, we did produce an amazing number of warships, literally faster than the combined Axis forces could sink them.

The early run of Liberty ships had some unforeseen problems and were structurally unsound. They had the unfortunate tendency to break apart in the cold waters of the North Atlantic. Kaiser was forced to add structural reinforcements to the hulls. Once done they gave very good service and were instrumental in winning the war.

Dave

www.pigboats.com
 
1.Pykrete wasnt invented by Pyke but by two american scientists who named it after Pyke because he came up with the Habbakuk.

2.Pyke was INSANE and not insane like a fox,I mean insane.His solution to k nocking out the Ploesti oilfields was send hundreds of dogs with scotch flasks around their necks thus intoxicating the guards.

3.Habbakuk would have been a nightmare for the allies.It would have put a big hole in the US economy, big enough to make them need to cut lend lease to the Soviets.It had 2 main advantages:It was as big as a tiny island and could easily carry bombers also pykrete made it virtually invincible which would have made it pretty handy in the Pacific in 1942 or in the Atlantic were it could probably close the torpedo alley in 1943.But it would take so long to make that it would finally be finished in early 1945 were the battle of the Atlanic was over and Japan could be bombed with ease from natural islands.And even if they did try to move it to the pacific it would take months for it to get there meaning its only use,stopping the need to capture Iwo Jima by putting an artificial island close to Japan,pointless.
 
Henry Kaiser was a near genius and his techniques for pre-fabrication and mass production of ships was a radically new concept for the times. Shipbuilding just wasn't done that way and it took a while for other builders to catch on. It must also be understood that building warships is an entirely different process. They have to be built to much tighter tolerances and with much stricter controls, heavier structures, increased redundancy of systems, etc. They are less adaptable to mass production with the manufacturing technology of the 1940's. However, as CalBear did point out, we did produce an amazing number of warships, literally faster than the combined Axis forces could sink them.

The early run of Liberty ships had some unforeseen problems and were structurally unsound. They had the unfortunate tendency to break apart in the cold waters of the North Atlantic. Kaiser was forced to add structural reinforcements to the hulls. Once done they gave very good service and were instrumental in winning the war.

Dave

www.pigboats.com

Well, I dont know if he was that much of a genius, the idea had already been used at the end of WW1 with what became known as the Hog Islanders.

http://smmlonline.com/articles/hogislanders/hogislanders.html

and a surprisingly good wiki article - surprising as it is wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hog_Islander

Hog Islanders is the slang for ships built to Emergency Fleet Corporation designs number 1022 and 1024. These vessels were cargo and transport ships, respectively, built under government direction and subsidy to address a shortage of ships in the United States Merchant Marine during World War I.[1]


American International Shipbuilding, subsidized by the United States Shipping Board, built an emergency shipyard on Hog Island just outside Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, at the site of present day Philadelphia International Airport.


Ironically, no ships were produced in time to participate in World War I, but many ships were active in World War II, with roughly half of those produced at Hog Island being sunk in that conflict.


Emergency Fleet Corporation (EFC) was formed by the US Shipping Board to acquire, design and build sufficient shipping for the US to conduct operations in World War I. The EFC found that US shipyards were too few and small to meet the needs; contracts were awarded to foreign yards in Japan and China. The EFC also contracted with private companies to form new yards, called "Agency Yards". These would be assembly yards, building prefabricated ships, rather than using traditional methods.

Hog Island in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was the first shipyard ever built for mass production of ships from fabricated parts and sub-assemblies, produced at dozens of subcontractors. It had 50 shipways, seven wet docks and a holding basin.


Only two basic designs, EFC 1022 and EFC 1024, were to be fabricated at the yard, these became collectively known as "Hog Islanders". The Type A design (1022) was a cargo carrier and the Type B (1024) was designed to transport troops. Both were simple designs geared toward mass production and aesthetic considerations were ignored. These were very modern in design except for the aesthetics. The vessels were fueled by oil rather than coal, with modern geared turbines of 2500 shaft horsepower capable of producing up to 15 knots.



The design had an minimum of frills with no sheer (upward curve at the bow or stern), resulting in a squat, angular silhouette. The hulls were symmetrical from the sides. The combination produced an unconventional look and profile. These ships were considered ugly but well built and had good performance in terms of capacity and speed. The profile created a form of camouflage because the lack of sheer in the bow, high stern, and the evenly balanced superstructure, made it difficult for submarines to tell which direction the ships were going.


The Hog Island contract was for 180 ships, but only 122 were completed, and none were completed in time to be used before the war ended. The first ship, the SS Quistonck, was launched on August 5, 1918, and the last of 122 ships on January, 29 1921.


Though not effective in World War I, these ships were used extensively by the military and Merchant Marine. Fifty eight, nearly half, of the Hog Islanders were sunk during World War II. The Liberty ships built during World War II used a similar concept of production, but a completely different design; in most ways the Hog Islanders were a more advanced design, despite their age.

[edit] Type B

Only 24 Type B troop transports were produced. Twelve of the Type B ships were built with 8,400-ton displacements, one of which became the US Navy USS Argonne (AS-10). Another twelve were built with 13,400-ton displacements, an example of which was the US Navy hospital ship USS Samaritan (AH-10), which was active in WWII.
 
It would depened on when it was tried. The ice may never have separated and there would be problems with taking off and landing. It could have had a major role at a decisive stage in the Battle of the Atlantic before it broke up or melted creating problems for rescuing the planes
 
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