Hitler's Post-war Plans
- Thread starter Lemont Elwood
- Start date
I generally agree this however I suspect the Nazis and USA would be even more antagonistic towards each other than the USA and USSR were in real life. Expect far more Vietnams/Afghanistans in a American-Nazi Cold War. It would help that the Nazis are sitting on (and possibly massacring, which would wreck any chance of collaborators badly) a very large population of restive Slavs/whoever else they have conquered.
Might the Nazis decide to divide France into smaller states rather than create a puppet of the entire country?
On your first point, perhaps...perhaps not. It would all depend on who or what faction came to power after Hitler and the original Putsch Nazis left the scene.
It also depends what the psyche of the United States is. Given what might be an increasingly isolationist USA having been on the losing side of the European war (although of course not directly impacted), America might elect to hunch up behind its wall of aircraft carriers, heavy bombers, and nuclear bombs and cede much of Eurasia to the Nazis - risking a fight only when direct - and I mean direct - US interests are threatened.
Regarding France, I don't see a dynamic that would produce an actual partition into several puppet states. As I indicated in a previous post, the Germans might have considered detatching a portion of eastern France and forming a buffer state (sort of what the French would have liked to do after WW1 to Germany with the Saar and Rhineland), but further splitting up France would needlessly complicate things.
I'm not so sure about this. Hitler dreamed of eventually hitting the United states, the skyrscrapers of New York collapsing onto the American people that sort of thing, and I don't see the United Staes being able to remain isolationist with such a spectre hanging over their heads. The other thing is, Hitler would actively pursue such an idea, being high on victory over virtually everybody. The US as I see it, would be quietly preparing for the war that was going to come. Rearming and supporting Britain would be a big one, they're going to need Europe's biggest aircraft carrier and they ain't going to let that fall. They would also be providing support for Russian Partisans via arms smuggling etc. The US pulling it's head into it's shell in this scenario is unlikely.
well as far as i know herman goering did come up with a system of economic and political dominance of europe something along the lines of eu only with germany being in charge alone and not sharing with france
as to the genocide of slavs well germans already started to kill them in milions before the war ended so i do not see why should the stop.those who could be germanised would be and that included widespread kidnaping of children
the point about germans being not ready to do that is bit of a bull the german line about holocausr that nobody knew is a bull ...there has been hundreds of thousands of germans involved in holocaust one way or another and germans especially in those times are sheep...as one german psychologist said in a interwiew ....germans are sheep they hate to think for themselvs ,for the last few generations they had been told to be nice and pacifist so they are and if they are told to go to war they will....the usual defence of anny german war criminal was "i was just folowing orders"
as to any economic considerations german fanatics are not know for logical thinking
i do not think that the reich would know any peace thou
resistence and revolutions after the death of hitler posible civil war over sucesion coup attempts etc
As I said, it depends a lot on who takes over Germany after Hitler dies (and given his health he probably wouldn't last too long past 1945). If he's succeeded by one of the original Nazis that shared - and expressed - his loathing for the US or a monster like Heydrich, then you are absolutely correct. On the other hand, if a technocrat like Speer, or even someone like Goering or Doenitz became chancellor, the "destroy America and its Jews" rhetoric might subside.
Unconsensual
Banned
I thought that by the war's end the Aryan status was awarded much more generously to essential war workers, blue-eyed Poles who can speak acceptable German and so on..... I'm pretty sure there was a divergence b/w Berlin's views and what actually happened.
Something along the lines of either Decades of Darkness or the Kaiserreich division of Germany*, would seem pretty good to the Nazis.
*Basically if you beat France as Germany, you can choose to divide them up into four nations; Britanny, Normandy, Ocentia and a rump French state in the middle. I don't think this is as likely as DoD simply because leaving a rump French state would mean there was still a rallying point for nationalists.
Ah, a discussion.
I have no doubt the Nazi government would LIKE to genocide Russia, but I simply don't see it practically happening, as there are (cough) quite a lot of Russians. It could still be done, but unless Germany is really good at isolating different areas, I would imagine a huge revolution, that would sap Germany's strength considerably. It'd be a massive insurgency.
Here's a fourth question. ASSUMING Hitler's supposed occult religion existed (such as seen in that one Military Channel documentary, Nazis: The Occult Conspiracy), is there as snowball's chance in hell of it actually being adopted by the German people? It's certainly possible for people to convert on such a large scale.
As an American, the depiction of Russia as a new frontier for Germany interests me... a pioneer culture. I'm pretty sure the German state would manufacture a baby boom, within a generation there would probably be many pioneers for a Lebensraumed Russia.
EDIT: BTW, what I'VE read about German views of the US were that they considered British and Americans both to be estranged brothers... not Germans, no, but closer to them than other races. Of course, America is also a mutt.
I have no doubt the Nazi government would LIKE to genocide Russia, but I simply don't see it practically happening, as there are (cough) quite a lot of Russians. It could still be done, but unless Germany is really good at isolating different areas, I would imagine a huge revolution, that would sap Germany's strength considerably. It'd be a massive insurgency.
Here's a fourth question. ASSUMING Hitler's supposed occult religion existed (such as seen in that one Military Channel documentary, Nazis: The Occult Conspiracy), is there as snowball's chance in hell of it actually being adopted by the German people? It's certainly possible for people to convert on such a large scale.
As an American, the depiction of Russia as a new frontier for Germany interests me... a pioneer culture. I'm pretty sure the German state would manufacture a baby boom, within a generation there would probably be many pioneers for a Lebensraumed Russia.
EDIT: BTW, what I'VE read about German views of the US were that they considered British and Americans both to be estranged brothers... not Germans, no, but closer to them than other races. Of course, America is also a mutt.
Snake Featherston
Banned
The Nazis would have made a serious effort to exterminate the Soviet population, yes. They did IOTL slaughter a quarter of the population of Belarus in three years, given peacetime and its concurrent ability for them to do all that they seek to do, the Russian population will, suffice to say, no longer exist as a civilization by the time Hitler croaks. The Nazis can't undo the results of butchering a minimum of 30 million people and reducing the survivors to illiterate slaves.
There's a good point that's come up in the last few posts here about the possibility of a German attempt at a Slavic Holocaust in Russia.
Would they have tried? and Would they have succeeded? are separate questions. Sounds obvious, in retrospect, but there it is.
Would they have tried? and Would they have succeeded? are separate questions. Sounds obvious, in retrospect, but there it is.
There are a lot of SOVIETS and a good number of Russians in Central Asia. Those in Central Asia would be beyond the goals that Hitler had set out, and most of the people in the 'Stans were not Slavs. Slavs in European Russia would be in a world of hurt. If 50% were alive 20 years after the Reich won it would be surprising.
It isn't hard to isolate and eliminate populations, especially in the Russian winter. Take away the fuel and food in October, do a bit of burning and by April you will have thinned the population quite nicely. As a "bonus" you will also have reduced the "unproductive" elements (children, the elderly, and women) in a higher proportion than those who can be most profitably worked to death.
What is often forgotten when discussing revolutions and partisan activity is that the effort requires support. Partisans without any base of support for weapons and some sort of leadership are little more than bandits. Partisans facing well led opponents with good supply, armor and air cover, will always lose. If the organized force has a totally unfettered ROE the Partisans will be obliterated, usually by eliminating the civilian population that supports it.
It is important to remember that the Nazis were perfectly willing to kill EVERYONE in a community, just to make a point. We are not talking about U.S. or even Red Army forces which had limitations on what they were allowed to do. We are discussing forces where the COMMANDERS are encouraged to be exceptionally brutal. What would get you a noose or firing party in an Allied Army or a bullet behind the ear in the Red Army, would get you a decoration or promotion in the SS. The Party intended for ALL land forces to be Waffen SS once the war was over (can't really trust the Army, too many old fashioned ideas, like honor, ingrained there).
You repeat the barbarism of Lidice (and the lesser known, but even more brutal razing of Lezaky) 40 or 50 times and people stop being willing to do ANYTHING to help the partisans. Often they will begin to inform, especially if they are starving and informing means getting enough food to survive for a week longer.
The Nazi religion was Nazism. You have to take a lot of the stuff on the Military Channel, especially the sensational stuff, with a whole shaker of salt. I usually recommend having several throw pillows at hand so you don't damage the TV when frustration over the stupid oozing out overwhelms you.
It isn't hard to isolate and eliminate populations, especially in the Russian winter. Take away the fuel and food in October, do a bit of burning and by April you will have thinned the population quite nicely. As a "bonus" you will also have reduced the "unproductive" elements (children, the elderly, and women) in a higher proportion than those who can be most profitably worked to death.
What is often forgotten when discussing revolutions and partisan activity is that the effort requires support. Partisans without any base of support for weapons and some sort of leadership are little more than bandits. Partisans facing well led opponents with good supply, armor and air cover, will always lose. If the organized force has a totally unfettered ROE the Partisans will be obliterated, usually by eliminating the civilian population that supports it.
It is important to remember that the Nazis were perfectly willing to kill EVERYONE in a community, just to make a point. We are not talking about U.S. or even Red Army forces which had limitations on what they were allowed to do. We are discussing forces where the COMMANDERS are encouraged to be exceptionally brutal. What would get you a noose or firing party in an Allied Army or a bullet behind the ear in the Red Army, would get you a decoration or promotion in the SS. The Party intended for ALL land forces to be Waffen SS once the war was over (can't really trust the Army, too many old fashioned ideas, like honor, ingrained there).
You repeat the barbarism of Lidice (and the lesser known, but even more brutal razing of Lezaky) 40 or 50 times and people stop being willing to do ANYTHING to help the partisans. Often they will begin to inform, especially if they are starving and informing means getting enough food to survive for a week longer.
The Nazi religion was Nazism. You have to take a lot of the stuff on the Military Channel, especially the sensational stuff, with a whole shaker of salt. I usually recommend having several throw pillows at hand so you don't damage the TV when frustration over the stupid oozing out overwhelms you.
The Russian cities would probably last the longest. Villages and smaller towns could simply be isolated and shipped off to gas chambers. Even if the Germans suspect it, they would probably see the genocide as taboo, like in Fatherland by Robert Harris. It's uncertain whether Slovenes and Croats would be annihilated, since they use to say that they were actually Ostrogoths, who spoke a Slavic language. In that case they'd be Germanised. But that could've just been lip-service after all. But I think it would be 100+ years (assuming the Nazis last that long) before the Slavs are all killed. Germany will have too much need for slave labour to kill all the Slavs straight away. Plus, its impractical, as there are a LOT more Slavs than Germans.
France is unlikely to be annexed. Puppet regime, Alsace-Lorraine back to Germany, and likely (free) permanent leases of Atlantic ports, military bases and certain colonies.
Germany would be unlikely to start any real conflicts for a while, at least during Hitler's lifetime. Even if they want more, they would HAVE TO consolidate their current conquests, as well as keep their puppet states in line (Like Communist Hungary or Czechoslovakia), destroy resistance movements etc. We may even see Yugoslavia becoming the German Vietnam. Or Afghanistan.
France is unlikely to be annexed. Puppet regime, Alsace-Lorraine back to Germany, and likely (free) permanent leases of Atlantic ports, military bases and certain colonies.
Germany would be unlikely to start any real conflicts for a while, at least during Hitler's lifetime. Even if they want more, they would HAVE TO consolidate their current conquests, as well as keep their puppet states in line (Like Communist Hungary or Czechoslovakia), destroy resistance movements etc. We may even see Yugoslavia becoming the German Vietnam. Or Afghanistan.
I Blame Communism
Banned
It's not a 'Slavic holocaust' if by Holocaust we mean, as people seem to, gas chambers. It's what Calbear explains: an expansion of the Nazi policies already in effect, which had killed at least 20% of Belarussians in three-four years, so so much for a hundred.
You don't need to tabulate, categorised, identify, kidnap, concentrate, and gas people to kill them. You just need to not give them any food. This was how one 'Slavic Holocaust' (of Soviet PoWs, Slavs or not) was already accomplished.
The surprising thing, with something so big and complicated as a modern human civilisation, is not food not arriving on the plate in time, but food arriving. Small breaks in the chain of supply can wreck everything. Are we forgetting that in the much more decentralised and agrarian 17th century - on which the Nazis consciously drew - the killing of quarters and thirds of a population by massive breakdown in health, housing, and food-supply was considered routine?
The cities going last is precisely the reverse of what will happen - what happened. Food does not grow in shops. Urban civilisation in much of the occupied USSR had already largely collapsed as people fled to the land or starved.
Yes, there are more Slavs. There were more slaves on a plantation island than slavers. Numbers don't always decide things.
Why is everybody so unwilling to confront the consequences of a Nazi victory?! We have nothing to be ashamed about here. We fought and stopped them. Are we going to forget why?
You don't need to tabulate, categorised, identify, kidnap, concentrate, and gas people to kill them. You just need to not give them any food. This was how one 'Slavic Holocaust' (of Soviet PoWs, Slavs or not) was already accomplished.
The surprising thing, with something so big and complicated as a modern human civilisation, is not food not arriving on the plate in time, but food arriving. Small breaks in the chain of supply can wreck everything. Are we forgetting that in the much more decentralised and agrarian 17th century - on which the Nazis consciously drew - the killing of quarters and thirds of a population by massive breakdown in health, housing, and food-supply was considered routine?
The cities going last is precisely the reverse of what will happen - what happened. Food does not grow in shops. Urban civilisation in much of the occupied USSR had already largely collapsed as people fled to the land or starved.
Yes, there are more Slavs. There were more slaves on a plantation island than slavers. Numbers don't always decide things.
Why is everybody so unwilling to confront the consequences of a Nazi victory?! We have nothing to be ashamed about here. We fought and stopped them. Are we going to forget why?