Hitler without medals.

Hitler won the Iron Cross 1st class during WW1, and German medals were cumulative so he had to have won the Iron Cross 2nd class before going on to win the 1st class for a second piece of bravery. What's more not many Gefreighter were awared 1st Class.

Hilter got quite the combination, a Gefreighter who was recognised as having commited two extraordinary acts of bravery. Certainly this would not have gone unnoticed during his rise to power.

WI Hitler didn't achieve this noteworthy combination? Perhaps he only wins the 2nd class, or gets promoted before getting the 1st class so it isn't quite as noteworthy. Subtle I know, but would this affect his rise to power?
 
Hitler won the Iron Cross 1st class during WW1, and German medals were cumulative so he had to have won the Iron Cross 2nd class before going on to win the 1st class for a second piece of bravery. What's more not many Gefreighter were awared 1st Class.

Hilter got quite the combination, a Gefreighter who was recognised as having commited two extraordinary acts of bravery. Certainly this would not have gone unnoticed during his rise to power.

WI Hitler didn't achieve this noteworthy combination? Perhaps he only wins the 2nd class, or gets promoted before getting the 1st class so it isn't quite as noteworthy. Subtle I know, but would this affect his rise to power?

as long as he served i dont see it being much of a difference... people like Himmler and Geobbles had no service at all and rose to high positions; Guderian didn't even fire a weapon during the war
 
as long as he served i dont see it being much of a difference... people like Himmler and Geobbles had no service at all and rose to high positions; Guderian didn't even fire a weapon during the war

Well, that was only because there was a Hitler around to move them into high places. Without him, they probably wouldn't have gotten far.
 

Tovarich

Banned
Would Hiltler not just have 'done an Idi Amin' and awarded himself those medals anyway?
If somebody can create the title of 'Fuhrer' for themself, then retrospectively taking medals is nothing by comparison.
 

Deleted member 1487

The medals were actually surprisingly irrelevant. Nazi propaganda did not play up Hitler's heroism (though modern scholarship has put even that into doubt), rather it de-emphasized it. It portrayed his as just another Landser that did his duty. The Nazis were trying to be 'one of the people' rather than standout paragons of heroics. Goering's medals did open doors of course (though interestingly enough it seems he was hated by his squadron mates, which may have been the result of lying about his number of kills, i.e. claiming fallen fliers' kills), Hitler's success was based on just having served, not winning anything. So no difference.
 
That might work in Uganda but Hitler was setting himself up in democratic Weimar Germany where service records are easily obtained.
 

Tovarich

Banned
That might work in Uganda but Hitler was setting himself up in democratic Weimar Germany where service records are easily obtained.

I don't think Weimar Germany was functionally democratic at the time of the Nazi's rise.

"Vote SPD, to get your head smashed in & house burned down!"
 
The Iron Cross wouldn't make a difference further down the line, but if he doesn't have the citations for bravery, does he still get recruited as an intelligence officer?

If not, he doesn't get sent to infiltrate the NSDAP and so doesn't become a polished orator and aspiring politician with a brutally focused ideology and party behind him. He remains an introverted and anonymous failure, ill at ease with himself and everyone around him. He drifts along during the 1920s, holding a succession of jobs punctuated by periods of unemployment and attempts to start a career as a painter. He might end up as a shouty sergeant in the Stahlhelm, or else depression gets the better of him and he shoots himself.
 
I don't think Weimar Germany was functionally democratic at the time of the Nazi's rise.

"Vote SPD, to get your head smashed in & house burned down!"

That's a hell of a lot more democratic than Uganda. Even so they were only the largest party in the Reichstag, they never gained a clear majority so there must be a limit to what electoral bullying can achieve. And what about the people who weren't bullied and voted Nazi, were they impressed by Hitler's noteable war record, more notable than their own?
 

Tovarich

Banned
That's a hell of a lot more democratic than Uganda. Even so they were only the largest party in the Reichstag, they never gained a clear majority so there must be a limit to what electoral bullying can achieve. And what about the people who weren't bullied and voted Nazi, were they impressed by Hitler's noteable war record, more notable than their own?

I'm going to stop this de-railment now, because I'm sure neither Riain nor myself actually want a debate about relative democracy between early '30s Germany and early '70s Uganda!

Although I will say how much I like your sig, Riain, and think it apt for our brief 'spat' ;)
 

Cook

Banned
Guderian didn't even fire a weapon during the war

Guderian was a professional soldier and owes his promotion to talent.

Would Hitler not just have 'done an Idi Amin' and awarded himself those medals anyway?
Actually probably not. You’ll note the very plain jacket he usually wore once he was the Fuhrer. And Riain is referring to Hitler’s rise to power, before he was Fuhrer so not relavent anyway.

It portrayed his as just another Landser that did his duty. The Nazis were trying to be 'one of the people' rather than standout paragons of heroics. Goering's medals...

Wiking’s hit on the key here. While other countries were building Remembrance Memorials to the Unknown Soldier, Hitler called himself ‘the unknown soldier’ of Germany.
Goering was the glamour boy of the Nazis, you don’t need more than one.

So like Wiking I am going to say that no, it would not have affected his rise.
 
Hitler regularly wore his 2 iron crosses on his plain jacket, indicating that he was proud of them. Also, as a gifted demagogue, I imagine that he was aware of some popular effect to be gained by wearing them. He said he was an ordinary soldier, but made sure people saw that he wasn't, that he was actually a rare bred of low-ranking bravery-award-winner, a super-corporal.

Even now it's quite well known that Hitler was decorated for bravery, I'm sure it was well known during his rise to power, adding some prestige to his image.
 
Okay, to clarify things a bit: The Iron Cross, 2nd class was nothing special. It was awarded more than 5 million times between 1914-1918, so being a volunteer and not totally screwing up on your duty was basically enough to get it.

The Iron Cross, 1st class was more exclusive, but still it was awarded 218.000 times. And considering the nature of the society of the German Empire connections were often as important as merit. As a runner hitler had comparatively much contact with higher-ranking officers, and was deferential to them to the point of being loathed by his comrades for it, he was in quite a good position for it. Though still a rather rare award for a Gefreiter, it was nothing to built a cult around. So it would probably have not made much of a difference.
 
I'm not suggesting his medals give him cult status, the 162,999 other Iron Cross 1st Class winners didn't become dictator of the world 2nd most powerful country so it's obviously not a magic wand. What I'm suggesting is that it gave him an edge, a bit of extra prestige so he could claim to be a Gefreiter with a difference, the sort of difference that allowed him to claim leadership. And if that's the case what would happen if he didn't have that edge, that little bit of extra mystique?


What I'd love to know is the rank breakdown of those 163,000 Iron Cross 1st class winners. Exactly how many Gefreiters won it, how many Feldwebels and so on.
 
Okay, to clarify things a bit: The Iron Cross, 2nd class was nothing special. It was awarded more than 5 million times between 1914-1918, so being a volunteer and not totally screwing up on your duty was basically enough to get it.

The Iron Cross, 1st class was more exclusive, but still it was awarded 218.000 times. And considering the nature of the society of the German Empire connections were often as important as merit. As a runner hitler had comparatively much contact with higher-ranking officers, and was deferential to them to the point of being loathed by his comrades for it, he was in quite a good position for it. Though still a rather rare award for a Gefreiter, it was nothing to built a cult around. So it would probably have not made much of a difference.


Hitler's bravery was unquestioned, and the medals where deserved, he delivered messages in critical battle situations often running through hails of artillery fire. In the 20's a newspaper supportive of his political opponents published an article questioning his award of the medals and his conduct in the war. Hitler was able to secure the testimoney of a couple of his commanding officers who testified truthfully that indeed that his conduct was fully deserving of the awards; Hitler successfully sued the paper and author for slander and won a judgement against them
 
While it would be interesting to see a breakdown by rank I don´t think a reliable one exists. The records of the Prussian army were destroyed during the second world war. Even the number of first class crosses awarded I found differ between 145000 and 218000
 
I'm not suggesting his medals give him cult status, the 162,999 other Iron Cross 1st Class winners didn't become dictator of the world 2nd most powerful country so it's obviously not a magic wand. What I'm suggesting is that it gave him an edge, a bit of extra prestige so he could claim to be a Gefreiter with a difference, the sort of difference that allowed him to claim leadership. And if that's the case what would happen if he didn't have that edge, that little bit of extra mystique?


What I'd love to know is the rank breakdown of those 163,000 Iron Cross 1st class winners. Exactly how many Gefreiters won it, how many Feldwebels and so on.

the medal wasn't awarded easily... german standards where much higher than Britain or the US... Rommel won his Iron Cross first class for leading a decisive small unit action as a company commander in which he actually bayoneted two frenchmen, popped two with his kar 98, expertly manuevered his company out of an encirclement and got shot through the leg at 40 yards with a lebel rifle
 
Would he have gotten the same initial spying job without the medals?
Butterflies at least would make things rather different
 
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