Hitler stays patient

To be frank, what you're suggesting is a scenario in which Germany prepares for a war in early 1940's while the Allies do likewise. A German scheme for European domination during late 1940's would press for different priorities than OTL's dash for massive re-armament as soon as possible.

This ignores the basic fact that the world is not a vacuum.


The first rule of military doctrine is that when your neighbor starts building tons of weapons and starts gearing up for war, it's best to not assume that they just like having incredibly expensive lawn ornaments.

If the Germans start building tons of tanks and planes and ships, the French and British are going to go "oh, well here we go again" and start doing likewise. Stalin, being Stalin, will look at all the war production and assume that either one of two situations is going to happen. Either the Western powers are getting ready to dogpile on the Soviet Union, or that they are getting ready to start pounding on each other. Either way he would most definitely want to be ready to either take advantage of the opportunity or defend himself.





The militarists may, or may not, elect to declare war on Western powers. There's fair chance of internal revolution, Soviet intervention and other things which will not lead into a war between Japan and Western powers. Even a war with Western powers may well be more disastrous to France and UK as a large scale colonial war might not be all that popular.

The fact that the Empire of Japan under the militarists was clearly heading toward self destruction failed to elicit a coup by less hawkish elements in Japan IOTL should indicate that the Japanese were not likely. As traditional as Japanese society was(and very much still is), a revolution would require an incredibly large upheaval in Japanese society, a TL where the Germans decide to hold off for a decade will be less turbulent, not more.


Yes, and the Soviet Navy as well.

What's your point?



More useless battlewagons RN and MN will build better it is for the Axis.

Considering that the British actually had the resources to waste on such "useless" battlewagons than the Germans ever did and that they could make far better use of them than the Germans ever could means that the balance still falls in the Allies' favor.




Is that sarcasm or agreement? I can't tell.



Compared to Stalin & bunch all he did before WW II was small potatoes. Better than commies for most of the West.

The West is still going to act with horror at the atrocities the Nazis will be perpetrating on its own people. Mind you without a war to distract him, and with the continual progression of Parkinson's disease with his increased amphetamines habit means that Hitler's actions will only become more irrational as time goes by, not less.



Compared to UK's WW I era ships and rifles and the French artillery park of WW I which will just get more modern as time goes by.

:confused:

The Allies' R&D surrounding the creation of their own military equipment was far more well rounded and thoroughly grounded than that of the Germans and wasn't handicapped by the need to maintain ideological purity. This was only compounded by the German tendency to create these overengineered, overly expensive, and completely impractical weapons which were rarely as reliable as their Allied counterparts. For a nation that has serious issues with both money and access to valuable natural resources, this is a huge problem.



After some ten years of aggressive state led industrial expansion, which would surely have been the route if delayed aggression has been thought out, this might not be the case. After all, in OTL 1960 East and West Germany combined had GDP of 558 billion (1990 int GKD), while France had 344 and UK 452 billions. Add in Austria for some 45 billions and your GDP is almost twice that of France and much more than UK's. This was after all the terrible losses of WW II in both manpower, capital investment and land and with the disaster that fell upon East Germany.

First off, 1990 East and West Germany were a very far cry from 1939 Nazi Germany, and comparisons seem rather silly.

Secondly, source?
 
The first rule of military doctrine is that when your neighbor starts building tons of weapons and starts gearing up for war, it's best to not assume that they just like having incredibly expensive lawn ornaments.

If one heads for war with a fifteen year plan the arms construction is made with much different rate than in OTL plan. It's likely that there would be pacts on size of armed forces similar to OTL naval pact in order to play down French and British fears. The "Kamikaze construction phase" needs not to be very long in industrial war. In OTL 1941-1944 the US built an impressive force from almost nothing, for example.

The fact that the Empire of Japan under the militarists was clearly heading toward self destruction failed to elicit a coup by less hawkish elements in Japan IOTL should indicate that the Japanese were not likely. As traditional as Japanese society was(and very much still is), a revolution would require an incredibly large upheaval in Japanese society, a TL where the Germans decide to hold off for a decade will be less turbulent, not more.

Yet it was internal communists which the militarists feared in OTL during wartime. While Japanese militarists were crazy, it is very well possible that they would not decide to go to war with three major naval powers of the world in situation in which the said three naval powers don't have some minor problems in their own front yard.

By mid 1940's the Soviet Navy would present a latent threat to Japan as well...

What's your point?

Stalin was heading for a huge fleet construction program which was interrupted by Austrian Corporal in OTL. By late 1940's the fleet was to include some 15 battleships, 22 large cruisers, 32 light cruisers, 162 destroyers and destroyer leaders and 344 submarines. This massive fleet, primarily for Pacific, would have eaten a huge amount of Soviet industrial capacity and manpower, whether or not actual target numbers were met or not.

Considering that the British actually had the resources to waste on such "useless" battlewagons than the Germans ever did and that they could make far better use of them than the Germans ever could means that the balance still falls in the Allies' favor.

Sure, but a 35% KM with more years to build experience would have been far more difficult pill for RN to swallow than OTL's minuscule collection of odd jobs untrained for large scale fleet operations.

Is that sarcasm or agreement? I can't tell.

Yes, there will be technical developments for the Allies and for the Germans as well.

The West is still going to act with horror at the atrocities the Nazis will be perpetrating on its own people.

In OTL many in the West were not really interested what Germany was doing until Germany started to threaten other nations. Mind you, as horrible Nazis were until WW II they had only killed a minuscule amount of people. Even concentration camps before WW II were holiday camps compared to Stalin's Gulag system. Action T4, the first mass killings, started only after beginning of the war.

I mean, even today Chinese are denied democracy, minorities are denied of their rights and massive amount of people are executed but that does not prevent most of the people buying Chinese products.

First off, 1990 East and West Germany were a very far cry from 1939 Nazi Germany, and comparisons seem rather silly.

The numbers are from Angus Maddison's calculations, and they're not from 1990 but 1960. Yes, that's not 1939 and not 1949 but Germany after some ten years of rebuilding while UK and France had had fifteen, with much less damage done. German "economic miracle" was, btw, much based on industrial investments done during Nazi and wartime, with personnel trained during Nazi period. Without doubt Nazis on the long run would have destroyed much of the German education but in short term the consequences were not that clear.

In 1960 West Germany alone produced more automobiles than UK or France, and much better ones than those from UK or France.
 
Except the UK will churn out four first class carriers very shortly. And then four more later on. By 1949, they'll have 10 fleet carriers and jet planes to go with them. And four battleships.

Jet planes? I doubt it. Even with massive spending of WW II and huge defense spending (compared to 1930's) of post-war era the RN did not have jets truly in service until 1953. With peace time spending until perhaps mid-to late 1940's I'd expect something like Fairey Firefly / Sea Fury mix to be in service.

Japan cannot win a production war against any of the major navies (even the French could outbuild them if they had to). That doesn't mean they ca'y win battles.

Yes, same as with KM.
 
If one heads for war with a fifteen year plan the arms construction is made with much different rate than in OTL plan. It's likely that there would be pacts on size of armed forces similar to OTL naval pact in order to play down French and British fears. The "Kamikaze construction phase" needs not to be very long in industrial war. In OTL 1941-1944 the US built an impressive force from almost nothing, for example.




If the Germans build jets, the French and British will build jets, if they upgrade or replace their tanks, their rivals work on a way to counteract that. Crash construction program or gradual buildup, if Germany builds new weapons, other nations will be making efforts to counter those, it's standard practice.





Yet it was internal communists which the militarists feared in OTL during wartime. While Japanese militarists were crazy, it is very well possible that they would not decide to go to war with three major naval powers of the world in situation in which the said three naval powers don't have some minor problems in their own front yard.

By mid 1940's the Soviet Navy would present a latent threat to Japan as well...

The only way the Japanese don't need massive amounts of resources is if they don't go into China, and since that is not part of the POD, then I guess it still happens in TTL. Now, considering that China does not have the needed resources, they have to get them from either Siberia or the Dutch East Indies. Mind you, the prohibitive cost of the mess in China more or less ensures that buying oil the legitimate way is not a good prospect in the medium term, so the "US doesn't enact an oil embargo" dog don't hunt either.


Stalin was heading for a huge fleet construction program which was interrupted by Austrian Corporal in OTL. By late 1940's the fleet was to include some 15 battleships, 22 large cruisers, 32 light cruisers, 162 destroyers and destroyer leaders and 344 submarines. This massive fleet, primarily for Pacific, would have eaten a huge amount of Soviet industrial capacity and manpower, whether or not actual target numbers were met or not.

More than the massive amounts of industrial capacity destroyed or captured by the Heer during Barbarossa or spent replacing the massive amounts of equipment that the Red Army and Air Force lost during the same operation?


Sure, but a 35% KM with more years to build experience would have been far more difficult pill for RN to swallow than OTL's minuscule collection of odd jobs untrained for large scale fleet operations.


Even assuming that the Kreigsmarine is able to build the ships in question and its ships aren't already thoroughly obsolete by the time hostilities commence in 1949, their carrier tactics are going to suck something fierce. What with Goering and the Luftwaffe being given control over even the aircraft flying off of the Kreigsmarine's carriers. Plus, I'm not even sure the Luftwaffe even had a plane capable of landing on or taking off from a carrier.





In OTL many in the West were not really interested what Germany was doing until Germany started to threaten other nations. Mind you, as horrible Nazis were until WW II they had only killed a minuscule amount of people. Even concentration camps before WW II were holiday camps compared to Stalin's Gulag system. Action T4, the first mass killings, started only after beginning of the war.

I mean, even today Chinese are denied democracy, minorities are denied of their rights and massive amount of people are executed but that does not prevent most of the people buying Chinese products.

Did you just compare present day China to Nazi Germany? Seriously?



The numbers are from Angus Maddison's calculations, and they're not from 1990 but 1960. Yes, that's not 1939 and not 1949 but Germany after some ten years of rebuilding while UK and France had had fifteen, with much less damage done. German "economic miracle" was, btw, much based on industrial investments done during Nazi and wartime, with personnel trained during Nazi period. Without doubt Nazis on the long run would have destroyed much of the German education but in short term the consequences were not that clear.

In 1960 West Germany alone produced more automobiles than UK or France, and much better ones than those from UK or France.

There are enough reasons as to why the post war German economy performed as it did to start a whole other thread on the issue, but all of the factors involved took place in post war Germany which was practically a different planet from Nazi controlled Germany.
 
"Even concentration camps before WW II were holiday camps compared to Stalin's Gulag system"

WTF?

Jukra, I don't know were you spend your holidays, or wether you're deliberatedly trying to get banned, but Concentration Camps and Holiday Resorts don't go in the same sentence, ever...
 
Jukra, I don't know were you spend your holidays, or wether you're deliberatedly trying to get banned, but Concentration Camps and Holiday Resorts don't go in the same sentence, ever...

Before Second World War the Nazi Concentration Camps were not destruction camps, but used to house and terrorize political prisoners in rather small numbers. Many people went just through the camps and were released, even Jews. The number of people Nazis killed before WW II was rather low, countable in thousands, not even tens of thousands.

During late 1930's, in comparison, Stalin's Gulag and kangaroo courts killed people in industrial scale we don't actually even know. That did not prevent international participation of Stalin's Soviet Union in various activities and participation in industrial trade.

As a note, I show no acceptance for the Nazi dictatorship. Just that before Second World War it was not easy to see how horrible the Nazi dictatorship could become. Nazis had no colonies and mass killings on their record before Second World War. After first days of Polish campaign this all changed to now familiar pattern of Nazi mass murder by numerous means.
 
If the Germans build jets, the French and British will build jets, if they upgrade or replace their tanks, their rivals work on a way to counteract that. Crash construction program or gradual buildup, if Germany builds new weapons, other nations will be making efforts to counter those, it's standard practice.

Definitely. The issue is whether or not they're more efficient or less efficient than OTL, and will they have capacity to spare as much as in OTL.

The only way the Japanese don't need massive amounts of resources is if they don't go into China, and since that is not part of the POD, then I guess it still happens in TTL. Now, considering that China does not have the needed resources, they have to get them from either Siberia or the Dutch East Indies.

Siberia is probably better option for militarists than DEI, considering that going to DEI will probably involve not only Dutch Navy but French, British and US navies as well with large (but untested) Soviet Navy lurking just close to Japan. Fighting Soviet Union involves destruction of just one major navy instead of three. And we all know how it would end, not perhaps at sea but on land.

More than the massive amounts of industrial capacity destroyed or captured by the Heer during Barbarossa or spent replacing the massive amounts of equipment that the Red Army and Air Force lost during the same operation?

Possibly yes. Navies, especially massive ones, are huge suckers of high grade industrial products and educated manpower. Remember that without LL Soviet Union would have collapsed.

Even assuming that the Kreigsmarine is able to build the ships in question and its ships aren't already thoroughly obsolete by the time hostilities commence in 1949, their carrier tactics are going to suck something fierce. What with Goering and the Luftwaffe being given control over even the aircraft flying off of the Kreigsmarine's carriers. Plus, I'm not even sure the Luftwaffe even had a plane capable of landing on or taking off from a carrier.

Let's say FAA aircraft weren't that hot either until very late of the WW II... The issue isn't a super-KM able to sweep oceans clean of Allied fleets, but larger KM than OTL presenting much greater troubles for Allied fleets than OTL.

Did you just compare present day China to Nazi Germany? Seriously?

In present day world community China is allowed routinely to breach human rights as it's economically too important country to ignore. It still can organize olympics and presents itself as a nation just like others in other international arenas.

We must also remember that the standard view of human rights was different during 1930's. Britain did not allow it's Indian or African subjects to vote, French did not allow women to vote, in US segregation was fair game, dictatorships were accepted if not envied form of governing worldwide...

It was only the Second World War which exposed the madness and evil of Nazis.

There are enough reasons as to why the post war German economy performed as it did to start a whole other thread on the issue, but all of the factors involved took place in post war Germany which was practically a different planet from Nazi controlled Germany.

In very long term a Nazi planned economy would have ruined German growth prospects but I don't see any reasons why a Nazi run planned economy would not have had very impressive growth rates for a few decades. After all, it was many Nazi products which made the export wonder of Wirtschaftwunder possible in OTL. Modular shipbuilding, VW Beetle, German electronics... all these designed by mostly Nazi era trained engineers and produced by companies which had built means of destruction before.
 
Before Second World War the Nazi Concentration Camps were not destruction camps, but used to house and terrorize political prisoners in rather small numbers. Many people went just through the camps and were released, even Jews. The number of people Nazis killed before WW II was rather low, countable in thousands, not even tens of thousands.

During late 1930's, in comparison, Stalin's Gulag and kangaroo courts killed people in industrial scale we don't actually even know. That did not prevent international participation of Stalin's Soviet Union in various activities and participation in industrial trade.

As a note, I show no acceptance for the Nazi dictatorship. Just that before Second World War it was not easy to see how horrible the Nazi dictatorship could become. Nazis had no colonies and mass killings on their record before Second World War. After first days of Polish campaign this all changed to now familiar pattern of Nazi mass murder by numerous means.


March 20, 1933 - Dachau Opens - Heinrich Himmler, SS leader and chief of the Munich police, announces the opening of the Dachau concentration camp. The camp is located about 10 miles northwest of Munich in southern Germany. Dachau is one of the first concentration camps the Nazis establish. The first prisoners arrive two days later. They are mainly Communists and Socialists and other political opponents of the Nazi party. Dachau is the only camp to remain in operation from 1933 until 1945
October 1, 1933 - Punishment and Administration Regulations - Theodor Eicke, the new commandant of Dachau, issues camp regulations for prisoners and guards under his command. The orders prescribe severe punishments, including systematic beatings and execution, for infractions of camp rules. Eicke imposes the death penalty on prisoners for acts of sabotage, attempted escape, and political agitation in the camp. Eicke's system of punishments and administration will become the model for all concentration camps under the administration of the SS.
November 9, 1938 - Kristallnacht Arrests - During the nationwide Kristallnacht ("Night of Broken Glass") pogrom, Himmler orders the summary arrest of about 30,000 Jews and their incarceration in three concentration camps: Dachau, Buchenwald, and Sachsenhausen. In the arrests during Kristallnacht, Jews are often dragged off the street or from their homes with few belongings. Almost 11,000 Jews are deported to Dachau in the aftermath of the pogrom.
September 27, 1939 - Conversion to Armed Forces Training Camp - The SS completes the transfer of all prisoners in Dachau to the Buchenwald, Mauthausen, and Flossenbuerg camps
 
Definitely. The issue is whether or not they're more efficient or less efficient than OTL, and will they have capacity to spare as much as in OTL.

Well, going with the logic that weapons development will be slower in peacetime than wartime, then we'll be seeing weapons in 1949-50 that resemble OTL weapons from 44-45. So, we'll be looking at the allies fielding Meteor's and Shooting Stars and Pershing tanks and Churchill's while the germans go with Me-262's and King Tiger's. That's not exactly a good scenario for the Germans as their late war designs were low on practicality/reliability and high on cost.





Siberia is probably better option for militarists than DEI, considering that going to DEI will probably involve not only Dutch Navy but French, British and US navies as well with large (but untested) Soviet Navy lurking just close to Japan. Fighting Soviet Union involves destruction of just one major navy instead of three. And we all know how it would end, not perhaps at sea but on land.

Really?

The Japanese got spanked thoroughly when they went up against the Red Army. The fact that even the notoriously dense Japanese government realized how outclassed they were and decided to go for the Dutch East Indies should tell you something.



Possibly yes. Navies, especially massive ones, are huge suckers of high grade industrial products and educated manpower. Remember that without LL Soviet Union would have collapsed.

As far as I have ever heard, this was never the case, and lend lease was only crucial in allowing the Soviets to conduct offensives in the final stages of the war, but that they were not reliant on it for basic survival.



Let's say FAA aircraft weren't that hot either until very late of the WW II... The issue isn't a super-KM able to sweep oceans clean of Allied fleets, but larger KM than OTL presenting much greater troubles for Allied fleets than OTL.

So the Soviets building more ships is detrimental to them because it wastes resources, but when the Germans do it, that's not so much of a problem? The only thing an expanded Kreigsmarine does is give the Royal Navy more stuff to shoot at. At best the Germans are looking at a scaled up but comparable balance of power at sea to what they would have faced in 1939.



In present day world community China is allowed routinely to breach human rights as it's economically too important country to ignore. It still can organize olympics and presents itself as a nation just like others in other international arenas.

We must also remember that the standard view of human rights was different during 1930's. Britain did not allow it's Indian or African subjects to vote, French did not allow women to vote, in US segregation was fair game, dictatorships were accepted if not envied form of governing worldwide...

It was only the Second World War which exposed the madness and evil of Nazis.

The fact that you insist on making a comparison between Nazi Germany and present day communist China is really disconcerting. I don't even know where to begin with this. Also, it was pretty widely known that the Nazi's were unpleasant folks, hell Mein Kampf was available outside of Germany. The Nazi's were already pretty controversial well before the war started, and that was before people realized just how insane they truly were.



In very long term a Nazi planned economy would have ruined German growth prospects but I don't see any reasons why a Nazi run planned economy would not have had very impressive growth rates for a few decades. After all, it was many Nazi products which made the export wonder of Wirtschaftwunder possible in OTL. Modular shipbuilding, VW Beetle, German electronics... all these designed by mostly Nazi era trained engineers and produced by companies which had built means of destruction before.

The building blocks established during the Nazi regime might have come together to provide Germany with a lot of success if not for the fact that the overall German plan was pure madness. They wanted to copletely replace the entire railroad network throughout their country with a much wider guage which would have required all cargoes to be swapped to a different train once it reached another country. They also wanted to completely tear down and replace the entirety of Berlin with a ridiculous monstrosity ridiculous proportions and would have eventually sunk into the ground under its own weight. The VW Beetle was not meant to be a commercial enterprise and I seriously doubt it would have enjoyed the kind of success that the car had in OTL due to thorough mismanagement by the Nazis.


Either way I get the feeling that if we continue this discussion any further, you're going to say something that will get you banned. So I'm going to call it quits after this post.
 
Either Germany slows down disarmament in recognition of their financial situation, in which case it winds up (at best) just-as-prepared for a '49 war as it was for the '39 war, or it tries to maintain it's plan of rearmament and suffers an economic collapse in the early-40s.

Mind you without a war to distract him, and with the continual progression of Parkinson's disease with his increased amphetamines habit means that Hitler's actions will only become more irrational as time goes by, not less.

(Emphasis Added)

Eh... a lack of war might actually slow down the progression of Hitler's parkinson disease some what given that running a nation at war is even more of a stressfull enterprise then running running one at peace. Mind you, this just means that Hitler in ATLs 1945 will only be as bonkers as, say, Hitler in OTLs 1943.

Of course, one question that I think should be asked: what happens if the ATL US develops the Atom Bomb before '49? The British, French, Soviets, and Germans will all go for their own crash programs and given the resource disparity[1], the British, French, and/or Soviets are more likely to get the bomb before the Germans[2].

At that point, it becomes less a question of "what is the war like?" and more "what is the national obliteration like?".

[1]Simply put, those three countries have access or the ability to quickly obtain access too Uranium deposits inside their pre-38 borders. Germany does not.
[2]I don't include the Japanese because A: The Pacific War will probably still kick off and they are going too lose that and B: they are even more short on resources then any of the other powers.
 
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Would the USA have the bomb by then without WWII? There will be no cooperation with the British to begin with and without a war funds for the Manhattan project might very well not be there
 

iddt3

Donor
Would the USA have the bomb by then without WWII? There will be no cooperation with the British to begin with and without a war funds for the Manhattan project might very well not be there
It's slower but the seeds are still there IIRC
 
Eh... a lack of war might actually slow down the progression of Hitler's Parkinson disease some what given that running a nation at war is even more of a stressfull enterprise then running running one at peace. Mind you, this just means that Hitler in ATLs 1945 will only be as bonkers as, say, Hitler in OTLs 1943.

Less stress and lighter use of amphetamines would certainly be apt to slow the progression Parkinson's and the type of dementia that often comes along with it (PD). Then again if the German economy becomes a wreck as was likely to without war he will have other things to be really stressed about. If Hitler manages to live to 1950 and still be in power Germany will certainly be a mess.

Parkinson's Dementia is different then Alzheimer's and most other forms of dementia by the way. PD tends to cause much more paranoia, delusions and psychosis then other major forms of dementia... well here are a run down of the symptoms.

Parkinson's Disease Dementia Symptoms


Cognitive symptoms in PD include the following:
  • Loss of decision-making ability
  • Inflexibility in adapting to changes
  • Disorientation in familiar surroundings
  • Problems learning new material
  • Difficulty concentrating
  • Loss of short- and long-term memory
Major mental disorders are common in PD. Two or more of these may appear together in the same person.
  • Depression - Sadness, tearfulness, lethargy, withdrawal, loss of interest in activities once enjoyed, insomnia or sleeping too much, weight gain or loss
  • Anxiety - Excessive worry or fear that disrupts everyday activities or relationships; physical signs such as restlessness or extreme fatigue, muscle tension, sleeping problems
  • Psychosis - Inability to think realistically; symptoms such as hallucinations, delusions (false beliefs not shared by others), paranoia (suspicious and feeling controlled by others), and problems thinking clearly; if severe, behavior seriously disrupted; if milder, behavior bizarre, strange, or suspicious.
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/parkinson_disease_dementia/page3_em.htm
 

Kongzilla

Banned
If Hitler wants to start a war in 1949, the economy won't be in shambles because the rearmament will be slower. He'll also rely more on politics. So more Sudetenland and Austria type stuff will probably happen.
 
Ooh, one thing I just discovered, the US was well underway to creating a new set of locks for the Panama Canal (according to globalsecurity.org the new locks were supposed to be 200 feet longer and 30 feet wider) when the project was canned in 1942 due to the war. With the war now not on until 1949 that expansion project will likely get completed, which would significantly improve the US's naval abilities given the now much larger "panamax" dimensions (You could fit the Montanas and Midways through with little trouble), plus with ships that didn't exceed the "old panamax" dimensions you could operate one set of locks as 'eastbound', and one set as 'westbound', which I figure could mean somewhat more than twice the actual shipping, since you could have a ship in ever lock with few queues.
 
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Kongzilla

Banned
The Soviet Union might be more unstoppable then OTL. With Mao still winning I presume. The Soviet Union may have access to another 600 million people to throw into the meat grinder.
 
Before Second World War the Nazi Concentration Camps were not destruction camps, but used to house and terrorize political prisoners in rather small numbers. Many people went just through the camps and were released, even Jews. The number of people Nazis killed before WW II was rather low, countable in thousands, not even tens of thousands.

During late 1930's, in comparison, Stalin's Gulag and kangaroo courts killed people in industrial scale we don't actually even know. That did not prevent international participation of Stalin's Soviet Union in various activities and participation in industrial trade.

As a note, I show no acceptance for the Nazi dictatorship. Just that before Second World War it was not easy to see how horrible the Nazi dictatorship could become. Nazis had no colonies and mass killings on their record before Second World War. After first days of Polish campaign this all changed to now familiar pattern of Nazi mass murder by numerous means.

The main distiction is Stalin's crimes were shrouded & murky and the Soveits had a semi-regetful tone. The Nazi's OTOH could hardly restrain thier pride in the ''wonderful'' things they were planning & doing.

The Soviets were also not seen as a direct threat to France & Britain nor weree they pro-activly trying to piss-off thir trading partnrs whilst racking up an ungodly level of debt & trade-imbalance.


Anyway as stated before, Germany was in an economic hole by the late 1930's they simply couldnt pay for the imports of material's they need to keep building arms & kep the country running.
 
March 20, 1933 - Dachau Opens - Heinrich Himmler, SS leader and chief of the Munich police, announces the opening of the Dachau concentration camp. The camp is located about 10 miles northwest of Munich in southern Germany. Dachau is one of the first concentration camps the Nazis establish. The first prisoners arrive two days later. They are mainly Communists and Socialists and other political opponents of the Nazi party. Dachau is the only camp to remain in operation from 1933 until 1945
October 1, 1933 - Punishment and Administration Regulations - Theodor Eicke, the new commandant of Dachau, issues camp regulations for prisoners and guards under his command. The orders prescribe severe punishments, including systematic beatings and execution, for infractions of camp rules. Eicke imposes the death penalty on prisoners for acts of sabotage, attempted escape, and political agitation in the camp. Eicke's system of punishments and administration will become the model for all concentration camps under the administration of the SS.
November 9, 1938 - Kristallnacht Arrests - During the nationwide Kristallnacht ("Night of Broken Glass") pogrom, Himmler orders the summary arrest of about 30,000 Jews and their incarceration in three concentration camps: Dachau, Buchenwald, and Sachsenhausen. In the arrests during Kristallnacht, Jews are often dragged off the street or from their homes with few belongings. Almost 11,000 Jews are deported to Dachau in the aftermath of the pogrom.
September 27, 1939 - Conversion to Armed Forces Training Camp - The SS completes the transfer of all prisoners in Dachau to the Buchenwald, Mauthausen, and Flossenbuerg camps

The above quote cannot objectively be said to run counter to what Jukra said, whether his facts are wrong or not.
 
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