Hitler opened peace negotiations with the Allies pre-1945.

It's clear that in the real world, the defeat was inevitable for the Nazis even before Normandy. And even though the Western Allies suffered many casualties in the Bocage, they still won via more manpower/arsenals at hand.

But what if Hitler wasn't a stubborn dope and saw this himself, in say late 1944? If he had thought that a settlement was key, what would it have entailed?

I'd think he may say:

- Germany keeps its pre-war boundaries
- Germany is permitted to all arsenals it chooses (contrary to what Versailles said)
- Germany can retain its political system
- All German troops are restationed within Germany proper, per the pre-1939 boundaries

this is in exchange for:

- reparations to the Allies for war damages caused to civilians in all Allied and occupied territories (rebuilding homes, and infrastructure such as bridges, roads, railways, etc.)
- reparations to the Jews and other marginalised groups
- All Allied troops in Germany pre-1939 territory are to be removed, in addition to all equipment

Would Churchill, FDR/Truman, or Stalin, not be willing to accept these terms?

They may reckon Hitler is willing to re-group, but then there's nothing stopping the Allies from doing this. But Allied victory, due to sheer weight of numbers of personnel, weapons, etc., was inevitable. However, would this lead to a new Cold War? Would the USSR in the East and France, the UK and USA in the West have a dual Iron Curtain with Germany?
 
As long as Hitler is breathing, nothing like this will be offered. Now if one of the various assassination/coup plots succeeds, then I could see Hitler's more sane successor offering a deal like this to the western Allies. The trouble is that it would be offered only to the western Allies and they might not accept because it would look like they are selling out the Soviets.
 
As long as Hitler is breathing, nothing like this will be offered. Now if one of the various assassination/coup plots succeeds, then I could see Hitler's more sane successor offering a deal like this to the western Allies. The trouble is that it would be offered only to the western Allies and they might not accept because it would look like they are selling out the Soviets.

Why wouldn't Stalin take it up? He seemed more reasonable/rational than Hitler, at least in strategic and general war matters. And if the Germans were paying him a sum until his infrastructure was repaired, then I doubt he'd care beyond that.
 
Why wouldn't Stalin take it up? He seemed more reasonable/rational than Hitler, at least in strategic and general war matters. And if the Germans were paying him a sum until his infrastructure was repaired, then I doubt he'd care beyond that.

I'm not saying Stalin wouldn't accept, I'm saying it wouldn't be offered to Stalin. Any German government that comes to power during this period would try to make peace with the west, but they probably wouldn't trust Stalin enough to negotiate with him.
 
How about between 1941 and 1943?

I think peace with the Soviet Union is possible, if Germany had not been led by the NSDAP. Operation Barbarossa was a huge blow to the USSR, after all, and the cost of driving the Germans back would be absolutely horrendous. If a sensible peace offer had been made by a sensible government, I think a deal could have been made.

Of course, in Hitler's mind the only possible deal was: "All of your land is ours now and you'll be worked to death as slaves", so it's all a moot point.
 
So then Stalin would destroy them, and the Western Allies wouldn't intervene for various valid reasons (not making the USSR a long-term enemy, they have serious battle-weariness, bankruptcy, etc.)
 
I'm not saying Stalin wouldn't accept, I'm saying it wouldn't be offered to Stalin. Any German government that comes to power during this period would try to make peace with the west, but they probably wouldn't trust Stalin enough to negotiate with him.
Wasn't there a point in which there was a unconfirmed rumored that Stalin sent out feelers in mid August that he wanted either an armistice or a military truce/peace if Herr Hitler was willing to halt the Wehrmacht advance and herr Stalin was willing to let him gain half of the already captured Ukraine, most of Belorussia , the Baltic states and some of the already captured Russian territories but Herr Hitler rejected it out of hand for he wanted the whole pie...
 
Wasn't there a point in which there was a unconfirmed rumored that Stalin sent out feelers in mid August that he wanted either an armistice or a military truce/peace if Herr Hitler was willing to halt the Wehrmacht advance and herr Stalin was willing to let him gain half of the already captured Ukraine, most of Belorussia , the Baltic states and some of the already captured Russian territories but Herr Hitler rejected it out of hand for he wanted the whole pie...

However it is unclear if Stalin was negotiating in good faith, or simply was trying to buy time.
 
I think peace with the Soviet Union is possible, if Germany had not been led by the NSDAP. Operation Barbarossa was a huge blow to the USSR, after all, and the cost of driving the Germans back would be absolutely horrendous. If a sensible peace offer had been made by a sensible government, I think a deal could have been made.

Of course, in Hitler's mind the only possible deal was: "All of your land is ours now and you'll be worked to death as slaves", so it's all a moot point.

The territory that had been occupied by the Germans had undergone ethnic cleansing, starvation and numerous other atrocities. The Soviets are not negotiating. There was no way the Germans were getting out of what they had done as long as the Soviets had the capacity to bring the fight to Germany proper.

It's clear that in the real world, the defeat was inevitable for the Nazis even before Normandy. And even though the Western Allies suffered many casualties in the Bocage, they still won via more manpower/arsenals at hand.

But what if Hitler wasn't a stubborn dope and saw this himself, in say late 1944? If he had thought that a settlement was key, what would it have entailed?

I'd think he may say:

- Germany keeps its pre-war boundaries
- Germany is permitted to all arsenals it chooses (contrary to what Versailles said)
- Germany can retain its political system
- All German troops are restationed within Germany proper, per the pre-1939 boundaries

this is in exchange for:

- reparations to the Allies for war damages caused to civilians in all Allied and occupied territories (rebuilding homes, and infrastructure such as bridges, roads, railways, etc.)
- reparations to the Jews and other marginalised groups
- All Allied troops in Germany pre-1939 territory are to be removed, in addition to all equipment

Would Churchill, FDR/Truman, or Stalin, not be willing to accept these terms?

They may reckon Hitler is willing to re-group, but then there's nothing stopping the Allies from doing this. But Allied victory, due to sheer weight of numbers of personnel, weapons, etc., was inevitable. However, would this lead to a new Cold War? Would the USSR in the East and France, the UK and USA in the West have a dual Iron Curtain with Germany?

The Allies had already agreed on Unconditional Surrender at the Casablanca conference in '43. By 1944 it was obvious the Germans were done, 45 it's laughable. With the US involved it's game over, the Allied aren't negotiating, Germany needed to be invaded and occupied, so there was no repeat of what happened after WWI.
 
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Before 1941 it is certainly possible, but the Germans aren't going to negotiate (after all why make a white peace when you're winning?) From 1941 to 1943 it is much more difficult, but it could happen in the West if there was some dramatic regime change and Germany would need to give some serious concessions. After 1943 it has as much chance of happening as Sealion.
 
As long as Germany was "winning", or at least not obviously losing beyond hope, the various groups that might have had a shot at a coup were not "active". By the time they were really interested in doing anything, Germany was right & truly in the crapper. Some sort of deal was possible before the USA was in the war, if things had been a little worse for the UK even Churchill might have come to some sort of armistice. Once the USA was in he knew victory was inevitable.

Going back to some sort of status ante bellum with "reparations would simply not work. Anything much tougher than that, can't see the Germans accepting it until the situation was really bad, and then the Allies wouldn't do it.

So some sort of "white" peace to end WWII - totally ASB
 
Before 1941 it is certainly possible, but the Germans aren't going to negotiate (after all why make a white peace when you're winning?) From 1941 to 1943 it is much more difficult, but it could happen in the West if there was some dramatic regime change and Germany would need to give some serious concessions. After 1943 it has as much chance of happening as Sealion.

Yeah sometime before 41 is might and that's a big might be possible, after the US were involved, it was over.
 
Yeah sometime before 41 is might and that's a big might be possible, after the US were involved, it was over.
I agree. Hitler need only copy Bismarck, defeat the French and then leave France, this time ensuring a German-friendly govt remains. Britain would be on the ropes now.
 

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There was no chance of the Allies making a deal. Stalin wanted Hitler dead (or in a private zoo where he could ensure he suffered). FDR had made the Unconditional Surrender statement in January of 1943, after that, it was all over for the WAllies as well.

By late 1944 all the Allied leaders had full understanding of exactly what the Reich was. No one was making a deal with them.
 
There was no chance of the Allies making a deal. Stalin wanted Hitler dead (or in a private zoo where he could ensure he suffered). FDR had made the Unconditional Surrender statement in January of 1943, after that, it was all over for the WAllies as well.

By late 1944 all the Allied leaders had full understanding of exactly what the Reich was. No one was making a deal with them.

The only real chance of a deal is before the invasion of the Soviet Union, but I doubt that would happen. Hitler won't negotiate, and since he's winning the Schwartz Capalle and other resistance groups in the Army aren't going to be interested in killing him.
 
The only real chance of a deal is before the invasion of the Soviet Union, but I doubt that would happen. Hitler won't negotiate, and since he's winning the Schwartz Capalle and other resistance groups in the Army aren't going to be interested in killing him.

The only kind of 'negotiations' possible with Hitler prior to Stalingrad were the surrender clauses. Basically his enemies would need to be ground to dust to accept the terms Hitler would offer. First because no one believed him and second his terms were rather harsh...
 
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