Hitler listens to his generals

MattII: Just responding vs. the tank part as that's the one we seem to disagree on.

So the driver is blind when the tank is in action?

Elfwine is right - tactical doctrine has always been and will always be to face the glacis plate towards the enemy, because that is the most heavily armored part of the tank.
 
If the Germans are on the move, they're much harder to surround or move against.

Except their movement will constantly be delayed by Soviet rear area formations seizing towns along their withdrawal routes, along with constant attacks in their rear. Not to mention that the roads will be clogged with men, vehicles, guns, and several feet of snow. They would be moving at a snail's pace and it's doubtful that they could lose contact with whatever formations the Soviets are throwing at them.

Sounds like something that would happen vs. any reasonably well prepared - as in not ambushed - Germans.

Not really. While high losses were almost guaranteed, the German's tenacious defense forced the Soviet's rifle divisions, without proper support in any form, to launch constant attacks against prepared positions which rapidly wore. Against a force which is attempting to execute a fighting retreat, rather than defend every town and village, attrition will naturally be much less.
 
Except their movement will constantly be delayed by Soviet rear area formations seizing towns along their withdrawal routes, along with constant attacks in their rear. Not to mention that the roads will be clogged with men, vehicles, guns, and several feet of snow. They would be moving at a snail's pace and it's doubtful that they could lose contact with whatever formations the Soviets are throwing at them.

A snail's pace is still more mobile than sitting on your duff praying the Fuehrer is not a madman asking you to do the impossible.

Soviet rear area formations have to get into position across just as ugly conditions as the Germans are retreating through.

Not really. While high losses were almost guaranteed, the German's tenacious defense forced the Soviet's rifle divisions, without proper support in any form, to launch constant attacks against prepared positions which rapidly wore. Against a force which is attempting to execute a fighting retreat, rather than defend every town and village, attrition will naturally be much less.
So instead of prepared positions (which would have to be hastily improvised) the Germans have a "mere" rear guard.

I'm fairly sure those running into it are still going to be bled heavily.

Especially since if the advance has to keep moving forward, even basic preparation is going to be even less possible than against prepared positions (unless the Soviets are essentially literally ordering men into the fight as they come off the trains from Siberia and such).

I'm not an expert, so I bow to the knowledge of those who are, but if the choices are "stand fast regardless of whether or not such is feasible" or "retreat to a better position if possible", praising the first needs something more than the kind of problems (winter weather will brutalize the Germans wherever they are, judging by OTL casualties) both options suffer from.
 
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So the driver is blind when the tank is in action?
No, the driver has a periscope of sorts, but you know, with the turret right behind it, it can't face backwards. Of course you could have the commander standing up out of the turret, but without winter clothes, that's just inviting frostbite for all.

I'm assuming that those tank units which are actually fighting are going to turn to face the enemy the normal way tanks fight.
Which means the tank will be spend a lot of the time going in reverse, with the driver blind to what he's about to drive into.

A snail's pace is still more mobile than sitting on your duff praying the Fuehrer is not a madman asking you to do the impossible.
Not really enough to make a difference. Also, moving soldiers can't build fires, cook food or pitch tents, so that's just adding to their misery.

Soviet rear area formations have to get into position across just as ugly conditions as the Germans are retreating through.
The russian troops are more prepared for that terrain and weather, they have ski troopers, and their tanks have wide tracks.
 
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No, the driver has a periscope of sorts, but you know, with the turret right behind it, it can't face backwards. Of course you could have the commander standing up out of the turret, but without winter clothes, that's just inviting frostbite for all.

And this is less of a problem with the German army being told not to retreat?

Which means the tank will be spend a lot of the time going in reverse, with the driver blind to what he's about to drive into.
Which means that the tank will spend a lot of time either facing the way its supposed to face (and - correct me if I'm wrong - blindness isn't that big an issue for German tank designs at this point) in a fight, or not facing that way because it's not fighting and can drive away the same way as if it was advancing west(ish).

Most fighting retreats don't have all the retreaters under constant (as in 24 hours a day) assault, no matter how tenacious the pursuer is.

Not really enough to make a difference.
OTL:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]December 8th:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The Russian offensive against Army Group Centre before Moscow succeeds in breaking through the German lines in many places, causing hasty withdrawals by ill-prepared and frost-bitten troops that are forced to abandon much heavy equipment immobilized by the below-zero weather. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]December 9th:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Russian forces recapture Klin and Tikvin. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]December 13th:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Russian forces launch a counter-offensive from the Kalinin area toward besieged Leningrad. German forces of Army Group Centre evacuate Tula. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]December 14th:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] German forces evacuate Kalinin.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]December 16th:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] German forces of Army Group Centre are ordered by Hitler to defend their positions at all costs and any withdrawal is forbidden.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]December 18th:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Field Marshal Von Brauchitsch resigns as head of OKH, Hitler himself assuming personal command of the Heer, especially of its operations on the Eastern front. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]December 20th:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] German forces of Army Group Centre retreating from the front before Moscow reach new defensive lines more than 100 miles to the west, where, following strict orders by Hitler, they are to stand and fight off any further Russian advances. [/FONT]

So at least 8+ miles a day (and depending on when we count the retreat as having started) and that with Hitler specifically forbidding it mid way through.

How is something where the Germans are trying to make an organized retreat from the beginning instead of this forced-back-involuntarily going to be no better?

The russian troops are more prepared for that terrain and weather, they have ski troopers, and their tanks have wide tracks.
Oh sure. But that's an advantage they have with anything short of the Germans gaining the elven Walk-on-Snow ability - and unless the German army is remaining static (not just no retreating but lined up without manuevering).

Frankly, this is sounding like a lose from November 29 on whatever the Germans do.

Not just the war on the whole, but any plan to deal with the Russian response.

So my question, as you seem to be more knowledgable than I am on German tanks - how much will they suffer trying to retreat in an organized, deliberate fashion back to better defense lines from the beginning, as distinct from their losses OTL?

The poor bloody infantry is just going to die, but heavy Panzer casualties probably mean lost crews and lost machines.
 
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