Hitler invades Swizerland

Wasn't the biggest problem the relative acute shortage of high strength strategic metals, like tungsten? Forcing the Germans to go with weaker substitutes like nickel, leading to "metal creep" in the turbine blades, shredding the engines (even in mid-flight!) and effectively preventing the Luftwaffe pilots from "fire-walling" their engines during take-offs and upon contact with the enemy?

The Me-262 was the fastest plane in the skies, but AIUI (and people are free to correct me) the plane had a relatively shitty acceleration rate for all that power in the Jumo 004 engine. No wonder she was seen as such a hanger queen.

Actually, that was just a mechanical and materials issue. It ruined reliability. The compressor problem was a major issue. For example, it was a serious problem with BMW's 002 to the point they dropped it and went to the 003. It's first use on the Me 262 V1 was so disastrous they spent a year and had intensive help from Brown Boveri redesigning the compressor section that it almost delayed production enough for that engine to miss the war entirely.

Brown Boveri was by the mid 30's arguably the world's leading expert firm on gas turbines and turbocompressors as they had been doing research on these and related turbine matters since the early 20's. While they had done nothing in terms of aircraft engines with them, they were the go-to guys for axial compressor designs having already worked out all the various blade shapes and such.
Everybody was purchasing their engineering expertise. Hispano Suiza, the British government, the Germans, etc.

Without them, the Germans would have had to do considerable research and experimentation on airfoil sections of high speed axial compressors to get their engines to work, and then to work efficiently.
 
the Swiss had huge tangible gold reserves into 1939, which were then re-balanced to overseas holdings.

the most opportune time would be before (any) invasion of Poland, YES there would be problems with international settlements but they were debtor nation so grabbing the Swiss loot puts them in stronger position.

The thing is that invading Switzerland in 1941 to get gold leaves a big problem - No one with anything to give Germany will trade with them, as they know the payment is in all likelyhood stolen.

WTF? (what the franc?)

the situation you describe is exactly what happened IOTL, the Germans traded with stolen and commandeered monies and goods, they weren't dealing with angels.

the problem would be chaos (to say the least) in banking system. IMO not as big of a problem for Axis as the counterparts on the Allied side, the German economy was run as sort of crime family anyway.

You are BOTH right in your own way. Economically the Nazis would have had a looting bonanza. But in terms of the politics of diplomacy, it would have shattered Nazi Germany's standing among the remaining neutrals in the world. If the MOST neutral nation on Planet Earth could get invaded and conquered by the Nazis, then literally no one is safe, no one can trust the Nazis.

The only country you would see staying out of it still is of course Franco's Spain.

But you could see Sweden do a last minute end of war DoW to convince the German garrison to pack it in rather than try to make a fight of it.

So too Turkey could be somewhat less slothful about their own DoW against Germany (February 23rd, 1945) and start selling ALL of their chrome supplies to the Allies that much sooner ITTL.

Portugal might well hand over air bases in the Azores earlier ITTL.:)

cynic's golden rule "he who has the gold makes the rules"

the worst case for Germany would be they are forced to continue their alliance with USSR (and my scenario KMT China and Iran.)
 
I take it yo are unfamiliar with that quote?

He actually said "four times". They are not going to hit every time, you know.

cynic's golden rule "he who has the gold makes the rules"

the worst case for Germany would be they are forced to continue their alliance with USSR (and my scenario KMT China and Iran.)

Hitler's not leaving Russia alone. If the Second Five Year Plan is allowed to be completed, most of the damage done by the purges will be corrected.
 
The Germans would probably be butchered in the event of an invasion. It would probably result in another situation like Greece--too many soldiers concentrated on Switzerland would drag into troop reserves meant for the Soviet Union, which would mean that the Soviets have a just slightly easier time. Heavy Swiss defenses, coupled with brutal mountainous terrain, would make things awful on the Germans. If Switzerland manages to hold off the German invasion, there's at least a halfway decent chance that they'll join the Allies. Whether that leads to the Swiss joining NATO afterwards I can't say--Switzerland may no longer see a threat to itself, but other former neutrals like Portugal, Norway, and Denmark joined, which at least leaves the door open. Also, the use of Switzerland as a base for Allied soldiers would probably make the invasion of Germany a bit easier. Even if Switzerland fell, you would probably see a pretty large and active resistance movement.
 
The Germans would probably be butchered in the event of an invasion. It would probably result in another situation like Greece--too many soldiers concentrated on Switzerland would drag into troop reserves meant for the Soviet Union, which would mean that the Soviets have a just slightly easier time. Heavy Swiss defenses, coupled with brutal mountainous terrain, would make things awful on the Germans. If Switzerland manages to hold off the German invasion, there's at least a halfway decent chance that they'll join the Allies. Whether that leads to the Swiss joining NATO afterwards I can't say--Switzerland may no longer see a threat to itself, but other former neutrals like Portugal, Norway, and Denmark joined, which at least leaves the door open. Also, the use of Switzerland as a base for Allied soldiers would probably make the invasion of Germany a bit easier. Even if Switzerland fell, you would probably see a pretty large and active resistance movement.
More realistically, everything worth overruning is overran by Germans in three to seven days, what remains of Swiss army runs for the mountains, where, after a couple of unsuccesfull attacks it is left to rot; in '45, when Switzerland is liberated, shocked allied troops and politicians will learn that the remnants of besieged Swiss had to resort to cannibalism in order to survive. This traumatic ordeal should indeed make them to abandon their neutrality and cooperate closely with Nato.
 
More realistically, everything worth overruning is overran by Germans in three to seven days, what remains of Swiss army runs for the mountains, where, after a couple of unsuccesfull attacks it is left to rot; in '45, when Switzerland is liberated, shocked allied troops and politicians will learn that the remnants of besieged Swiss had to resort to cannibalism in order to survive. This traumatic ordeal should indeed make them to abandon their neutrality and cooperate closely with Nato.

Is it just me, or do you have something against the Swiss?:confused:
 
Is it just me, or do you have something against the Swiss?:confused:
Why I would have anything against Swiss? They just stand alone against much stronger enemy, and there is no one who could come to their help atm. I am sort of pessimistic about their chances.



Ech, I forgot about the gold reserves, which naturally would have been evacuated to the mountains, at least most of it. So it would not have been 'everything' worth overruning.
 
The Germans would probably be butchered in the event of an invasion. It would probably result in another situation like Greece--too many soldiers concentrated on Switzerland would drag into troop reserves meant for the Soviet Union, which would mean that the Soviets have a just slightly easier time. Heavy Swiss defenses, coupled with brutal mountainous terrain, would make things awful on the Germans.

Just because not ALL of Switzerland is in heavy mountain fortresses, doesn't mean that the rest of the country is an open door. Much of the less formidable regions of the country have restricted access from invaders, and the Swiss Army has a fair number of excellent infantry divisions. The whole army did not consist of relatively immobile fortress troops.

AISI, the greatest danger for the Swiss is if they fall prey to the same thinking that befell the Norwegians, the Dutch, the Belgians, and even the Soviets: Just play it meek enough, drive your head in the sand long enough, and somehow the Nazi threat will just all go away. So the Nazis invade Switzerland, and between sabotage by would-be collaborators (remember what happened to Norway) and having the army poorly mobilized and out of their prepared defensive positions, the Nazis could get more of the country at the very start than anyone would have expected. Add possible demoralization to this, and a mostly quick occupation is not ASB.

If Switzerland manages to hold off the German invasion, there's at least a halfway decent chance that they'll join the Allies.

I don't want to be sounding snarky:eek:, but with the exception of the Soviets (ruled by the hyper-paranoid Stalin, anytime that a neutral nation is invaded by one side in a general war the invaded country instantly becomes a full military ally of the invader's active belligerent enemies. That's just political reality.

Otherwise, the Swiss people themselves will be demanding their government join the Allies. That frees up Swiss air bases for shuttle bombing to German targets by the Western Allies and even using fighter bases. The Allies won't get immediate air superiority, but depending on when this happens ITTL, it could represent a serious threat to German airspace years before long-range Allied fighters become available.

Not to mention the Allies can now flank the Rhine River when that becomes an issue.

Whether that leads to the Swiss joining NATO afterwards I can't say--Switzerland may no longer see a threat to itself, but other former neutrals like Portugal, Norway, and Denmark joined, which at least leaves the door open.

I'd say that the better the Nazis do against the Swiss, and the worse the Nazis do unto them, the more likely Switzerland joins NATO. A Nazi conquest of Switzerland makes for the lesson that you can't go home again.

Also, the use of Switzerland as a base for Allied soldiers would probably make the invasion of Germany a bit easier. Even if Switzerland fell, you would probably see a pretty large and active resistance movement.

IMHO, if Switzerland fell outright, you'd probably see the country bypassed.

More realistically, everything worth overruning is overran by Germans in three to seven days<snip>

As I posted above, the only way the Swiss fall that quickly is due to the Germans pulling off a "Norway" in terms of Swiss confusion.

Is it just me, or do you have something against the Swiss?:confused:

Like with Americans, people tend to have a problem with Swiss politics, not the Swiss people themselves. In the case of Switzerland's politics (and laws), its their history as misery merchants. Blood diamonds, banking with no questions, accepting Nazi loot, neutrality uber alles...


Yeah, but the cannibalism part is rather wacky.

The Swiss troops would surrender before the cannabilism started. They are not isolated fanatical Japanese, and even for them that was a rarity.
 
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