Hitler got the A-Bomb

If the Allies are as successful in cracking German codes as they were OTL, then that will probably be their #1 priority above and beyond the other strategic bombing campaigns. They'll throw everything they have at it until the facility (and the people involved) ceases to exist. And not just bomber strikes, either: as much sabotage as the OSS/MI-5/resistance can mount to disrupt the supply and support network in coordinated effort to cripple as much of the project as possible.

Problem with sabotage is, a bomb factory would most likely be situated in Germany proper, where there was no resistance to speak of. SOE operations there would be severely hampered.

The B-36 wouldn't have been a good platform for a WWII-era nuke. It was slow and unmanuverable, and would have been a sitting duck for most German interceptors (particularly if Hitler is smart and orders the Me-262 tasked as an interceptor and not a tactical bomber). In addition, it was a maintenance nightmare and was as likely to be lost to mechanical failure as to enemy action.

The "Featherweight" B-36s (with unnecessary extraneous equipment such as turrets, as well as a lot of internal equipment, removed) reached well in excess of 50,000 feet. This is above the effective service ceiling of pretty much anything the Germans can reasonably throw together. They are hardly easy targets.

The B-47 would be a much better choice and within WWII Allied technological capability (it was already in the design stage as early as 1943; the earliest model was basically a B-29 fitted with jet engines). If the war drags on somehow into the late 1940's, then the far superior B-50 and B-52 are available, but German interceptor technology is likely to advance to meet the threat as well.

Anything recognisable as the B-47 will not come into service until towards the end of the '40s at the earliest; the B-36 will be much quicker to introduce, with less troubles to straighten out and being already well into development. Nonetheless, even IOTL, only a relatively few B-36s were available as late as 1948. B-52s are right out of the question; nothing in the POD allows technology to "skim" half a decade or so of development. Also, the B-47 doesn't approach the service ceiling of the B-36; it will be much more vulnerable to German interceptors.

Keep in mind also that the USA also has significant rocket expertise of its own in Robert Goddard and his liquid-fueled rocket projects. Combined with the already extensive British rocketry research and superior Allied electronics, an inertially-guided missile just might be at the bare edge of practicality. Maybe not to deliver an allied nuke itself, but to pound the living crap out of the suspected German bomb factory and save a few thousand bomber crewmen's lives...

I doubt the Allies could produce that kind of accuracy in a ballistic missile that early.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The B-36 was, without question, a LOUSY design (not the least because it took an already cranky engine, turned it around, and denied it proper cooling resulting in little problems like the wings burning off). It was, however, invulnerable to anything the Luftwaffe flew. The Me-262 had an absolute max ceiling of (depending on the source) of 40,000 ft or less, with most sources indicating 37-38,000. The B-36 flew at an astounding (for the time) 48,000 feet.

The much later MiG-15 could get to 50K and the F-86 was able to get to 47K, but they had to be having a really good day.
If the Allies are as successful in cracking German codes as they were OTL, then that will probably be their #1 priority above and beyond the other strategic bombing campaigns. They'll throw everything they have at it until the facility (and the people involved) ceases to exist. And not just bomber strikes, either: as much sabotage as the OSS/MI-5/resistance can mount to disrupt the supply and support network in coordinated effort to cripple as much of the project as possible.



The B-36 wouldn't have been a good platform for a WWII-era nuke. It was slow and unmanuverable, and would have been a sitting duck for most German interceptors (particularly if Hitler is smart and orders the Me-262 tasked as an interceptor and not a tactical bomber). In addition, it was a maintenance nightmare and was as likely to be lost to mechanical failure as to enemy action.

The B-47 would be a much better choice and within WWII Allied technological capability (it was already in the design stage as early as 1943; the earliest model was basically a B-29 fitted with jet engines). If the war drags on somehow into the late 1940's, then the far superior B-50 and B-52 are available, but German interceptor technology is likely to advance to meet the threat as well.

Keep in mind also that the USA also has significant rocket expertise of its own in Robert Goddard and his liquid-fueled rocket projects. Combined with the already extensive British rocketry research and superior Allied electronics, an inertially-guided missile just might be at the bare edge of practicality. Maybe not to deliver an allied nuke itself, but to pound the living crap out of the suspected German bomb factory and save a few thousand bomber crewmen's lives...
 
The B-36 was, without question, a LOUSY design (not the least because it took an already cranky engine, turned it around, and denied it proper cooling resulting in little problems like the wings burning off). It was, however, invulnerable to anything the Luftwaffe flew. The Me-262 had an absolute max ceiling of (depending on the source) of 40,000 ft or less, with most sources indicating 37-38,000. The B-36 flew at an astounding (for the time) 48,000 feet.

The much later MiG-15 could get to 50K and the F-86 was able to get to 47K, but they had to be having a really good day.

If the war continues for some years, the Germans MIGHT be able to scramble some design that could reach it (for example, the BV-155, if Blohm & Voss's claims for its performance were true). Even so, it's a long shot, though, and it's doubtful how much use it would be against them.
 
Problem with sabotage is, a bomb factory would most likely be situated in Germany proper, where there was no resistance to speak of. SOE operations there would be severely hampered.

Germany's raw materials are coming from elsewhere, as Germany doesn't have a lot of the raw materials needed for a bomb program. That's where the USA had the edge: it had almost everything it needed within its borders. Disrupt Germany's external supply chain and the bomb program becomes untenable.



The "Featherweight" B-36s (with unnecessary extraneous equipment such as turrets, as well as a lot of internal equipment, removed) reached well in excess of 50,000 feet. This is above the effective service ceiling of pretty much anything the Germans can reasonably throw together. They are hardly easy targets.

Provided the engines don't burn out getting to ceiling, or to the target zone, then they're safe. An engine failure makes the plane--especially in the stripped down configuration you describe--vulnerable to just about anything the Germans have. And the B-36 was very prone to engine failure.

Anything recognisable as the B-47 will not come into service until towards the end of the '40s at the earliest; the B-36 will be much quicker to introduce, with less troubles to straighten out and being already well into development. Nonetheless, even IOTL, only a relatively few B-36s were available as late as 1948. B-52s are right out of the question; nothing in the POD allows technology to "skim" half a decade or so of development. Also, the B-47 doesn't approach the service ceiling of the B-36; it will be much more vulnerable to German interceptors.

Necessity is the mother of invention. The Allies know that a successful atomic strike on Germany requires a better delivery vehicle than what they've got. The B-29 was just barely adequate for the strikes against Japan which had almost no meaningful air defense left at that point in the war. Germany is a much tougher nut to crack and the Allies know it. They'll either rework the B-36 into a more effective machine or rush development of later marks. The B-47 does have a speed advantage, albeit slight, particularly if the swept-wing configuration is integrated into the design.



I doubt the Allies could produce that kind of accuracy in a ballistic missile that early.

We're not talking about the TERCOM system in a Tomahawk missile here, just a few hundred V1 or V2-equivalents. Those are well within Allied industrial and R&D capacity. Hitting targets deep in Germany wouldn't be easy from Britain but if Norway is liberated earlier it provides another option for launch sites. And tearing up Germany's infrastructure is just as effective at shutting down an Axis bomb program as hitting the research facility itself.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Bear, I would like to know why you think a second project would take all the way to 1960. OTL's Manhattan Project took 4 years with British Help. I think the A-Bomb project would get scrapped and restarted in the early 50s.

I'm open to understanding why it would take this long.

Primarily because the Bomb required a SERIES of breakthroughs, not just one. Each was the result of a breakthrough, some in physics, some in mechanical engineering, some in chemical engineering, some in electrical engineering. All were made by men of considerable genius, none of whom were German. The Germans, despite efforts that had begun at the same time as the Anglo/American, had made none of these breakthroughs. The Reich had not even come close to a sustained controlled reaction (meaning plutonium wasn't going to available), this more or less guaranteed that they could not enter series production of any sort of weapon. The Germans also the lacked mechanical capacity to separate out the huge numbers of minute U-235 particles needed to accrue the 51kg of metal necessary to construct a single "gun type" uranium bomb.

Those are the bare edges of why. There are numerous others, chief among them the fact that the Germans had effectively given up on the project as impractical, something that would not have easily changed in the anti-intellectual environment that held sway in Nazi Germany.

BTW: This is why I included the proviso regarding no use of a bomb by the Allies. Once the Germans knew it was possible and effective, the military would restart the program, from scratch if necessary until they succeeded. Even then, assuming no help from spies, it would be sheer luck to get a working weapon in a decade.
 
Germany's raw materials are coming from elsewhere, as Germany doesn't have a lot of the raw materials needed for a bomb program. That's where the USA had the edge: it had almost everything it needed within its borders. Disrupt Germany's external supply chain and the bomb program becomes untenable.

IIRC most of the German uranium stocks came from what they'd confiscated from Belgium early in the war. That aside, while disrupting the communications will always be useful, unless it's very precisely targeted it won't affect any individual project.

Provided the engines don't burn out getting to ceiling, or to the target zone, then they're safe. An engine failure makes the plane--especially in the stripped down configuration you describe--vulnerable to just about anything the Germans have. And the B-36 was very prone to engine failure.

How prone?

Necessity is the mother of invention. The Allies know that a successful atomic strike on Germany requires a better delivery vehicle than what they've got. The B-29 was just barely adequate for the strikes against Japan which had almost no meaningful air defense left at that point in the war. Germany is a much tougher nut to crack and the Allies know it. They'll either rework the B-36 into a more effective machine or rush development of later marks. The B-47 does have a speed advantage, albeit slight, particularly if the swept-wing configuration is integrated into the design.

IMHO, B-36 variants or derivatives (perhaps with improved engines) would be both easier to build and much less likely to be intercepted, since they work at a wholly different altitude.

We're not talking about the TERCOM system in a Tomahawk missile here, just a few hundred V1 or V2-equivalents. Those are well within Allied industrial and R&D capacity. Hitting targets deep in Germany wouldn't be easy from Britain but if Norway is liberated earlier it provides another option for launch sites. And tearing up Germany's infrastructure is just as effective at shutting down an Axis bomb program as hitting the research facility itself.

Such missiles would require basing close to German-controlled Europe, unless you're launching them from a ship. And the V-2 was very inaccurate; it won't hit any specific factory. You're lucky if it hits the town the factory is in. THey also require very major development. It's much cheaper and more efficient to use conventional bombers.
 
How prone?

Not very is the true answer. The B-36, like the B-29, had serious engine problems in the early days but they were systematically cured. By the time the B-36G, H and J came along the engine fires were a thing of the past. The problem was solved by using an early production B-36 and flying it continuously until something broke. Then the engineers found what had broken/failed and fixed it. An inelegent process but it worked. By the end of the day, the R4360 was a pretty reliable engine, unlike the R3350 that suffered from problems until the late 1950s.

You can reinforce the B-36s near-invulnerability by sending them in at night (or, rather, arranging for them to be over the target by night). The Germans had nothing that could handle a B-36 at operational altitudes in daylight, at night they were even less capable of stopping them. It was the mid 1950s before the Russians were finally able to get an interceptor capable of taking on a night-flying B-36.
 

burmafrd

Banned
I had a supervisor years ago who was old enough to be a young crewman for the B-36. I was always fascinated by that plane and asked a lot of questions. As Bill pointed out, the engine fires were from the beginning and were pretty well taken care of early on. Before the jets were added it was indeed hard for the B-36 to get to altitude- but once it got there it stayed. Practically speaking it was not untill the B 52 was starting to come into service that the Russians were able to actually get at the B-36.
Frankly there is no way the Germans would have had anything that could have gotten the job done in the 40's.
 
Not very is the true answer. The B-36, like the B-29, had serious engine problems in the early days but they were systematically cured. By the time the B-36G, H and J came along the engine fires were a thing of the past. The problem was solved by using an early production B-36 and flying it continuously until something broke. Then the engineers found what had broken/failed and fixed it. An inelegent process but it worked. By the end of the day, the R4360 was a pretty reliable engine, unlike the R3350 that suffered from problems until the late 1950s.

Yeah, this was pretty much how I always understood it too. I was wondering if Snarf was sitting on anything I wasn't aware of.
 
Yeah, this was pretty much how I always understood it too. I was wondering if Snarf was sitting on anything I wasn't aware of.

Not really. I was thinking of the B-36 as it was originally introduced in the mid-40's. If the war goes on long enough to give an Axis bomb program the edge it needs, the engine modifications will take place much sooner of course. Adding the jet engines will probably take place sooner as well, too. But of course the Germans will still be in business enough to try and figure out how to take it down, too. If German industrial and R&D infrastructure are too torn up to come up with a decent jet interceptor capable of taking on even a stripped-down B-36, they probably aren't up to building an atom bomb, either (or if they are, it'll be a one-off affair).

To build a nuclear weapon, Germany's going to need beryllium. For the given application, nothing works quite as well and engineering a workaround is going to demand even more R&D resources Germany can't afford (to say nothing of reducing the probability of a successful detonation). The closest sources for beryllium are Portugal and the USSR. Portugal's easy enough to contain, while the USSR isn't about to let the Germans move anything except their own dead out of the country. Most of the proven beryllium sources in that era were in South America and thus very vulnerable to Allied interdiction. For that matter, long-term the Germans need a constant supply of fissionables. If this Nazi Germany can hold onto North Africa (and possibly grab French West Africa) then the uranium in Niger and Chad becomes available. Disrupt their supply chain and the things Germany needs to build a bomb become harder to get.
 
Last edited:
Top