Hitler Doesn't Declare War On the US

If the us is not at war with Germany, how will the project even continue, the massive expenses will be very hard to justify. And No us at war with Germany will most likely mean less data exchange between the manhattan project & tube alloys. Maybe preventing the leaking of info to the russians. Klaus Fuchs may stay in Britain working on the UK atomic effort, and thus supplying the russians with far less info.

I'll need to look at this in more detail, but I don't see any reason Manhattan Project would change significantly through the end of major fighting with Japan. The US was already moving toward going after the bomb before the point of divergence, and certainly Roosevelt would continue to see Germany as a threat. Unless the Japanese did a surrender a lot earlier than I think they would, the war with Japan should keep the program on it's historical course through maybe mid-1944. By that time it would have developed a lot of momentum.

I suppose it's possible that the war weariness might have forced cutbacks on the project, especially with a more Republican congress, but Manhattan project would have been a top Roosevelt priority, so I suspect he would be able to keep it reasonably on track through the November 1944 elections. If he lost in 1944, which is quite possible though by no means assured, he would still be in a position to keep things going through January 1945. At that point the US would have a lot of the pieces of the nuke program in place. A Dewey presidency might slow things down but I see nothing in Dewey's background that would indicate that he would scrap the program. So maybe the US doesn't have working bombs until early 1946.

I haven't thought this through in detail, but a slight delay in the program or approximately the same timing for nuke availability seems the most likely scenario.
 
Some thoughts:

Manhattan was not solely a US program. Britain played a not-insignificant role in the science. In this TL, the USA is not actually as war with Germany and the alliance with Britain is presumably not as formalized as in OTL. Would Manhattan be a joint program in this TL? Wouldn't that tend to slow the development of deployable atomic weapons at least somewhat even if it remained a hight priority of the US?

Maybe Manhattan remains as in OTL a joint UK-US research and development project, but the US never formally enters the war and the actual weapons are provided to Britain for the RAF to use on Berlin, etc? Even realizing how secret the project was, could this be politically acceptable within the FDR administration, let alone congress?
 
Some thoughts:

Manhattan was not solely a US program. Britain played a not-insignificant role in the science. In this TL, the USA is not actually as war with Germany and the alliance with Britain is presumably not as formalized as in OTL. Would Manhattan be a joint program in this TL? Wouldn't that tend to slow the development of deployable atomic weapons at least somewhat even if it remained a hight priority of the US?

Maybe Manhattan remains as in OTL a joint UK-US research and development project, but the US never formally enters the war and the actual weapons are provided to Britain for the RAF to use on Berlin, etc? Even realizing how secret the project was, could this be politically acceptable within the FDR administration, let alone congress?

The U.S. and Britain are still allies in the Pacific theater. So, yes, the project would still continue, especially after it becomes evident that the Japanese are as serious as they are about expansion and holding what they've taken.
 
Dear all,

May I as a new member say that this forum is "fun" and very inspiring. It also puts our current world into perspective.

On this thread specifically:

the 1-front war seems to negate the late start of Barbarossa and Stalingrad may never have happened as it did.

The key to it all seems to be 1942. I have always felt that 1942 was a more significant year than anything else in terms of Europe at least. However, this thread has really made me think along some new lines.

Thanks for a good discussion on this.

Ivan
 
To bring further discussion

Gents, I just read this entire AH and this has been very interesting to make it more interesting here are several things you may want to look at. German war production of fighters was at its peak in 1944-1945. Thousands were produced. The Luftwaffe was working on 60 different new types of aircraft 90 percent in developmental jet engine stages only. Germans were working on tanks like Maus armed with 128MM, King Tiger III armed with 105MM, Panther E-50s armed with 88MM, 128MM ATG and AA guns ect. Germans had built over 250 V-2 Rockets that were produced by Dora concentration camp slave workers in under ground factories in central Germany southwest of Berlin. The Americans and British removed over 150 ea V-2 assemblies and parts before the Russians showed up and captured the remaining rockets. V-3 rockets where in the developmental stages at this time too. Germans had been working on helicopters, and massive under ground cities and roads and Flak towers all over Germany. Flaks towers can still be seen in Austria and Germany some of these had walls of concrete and steel 50 feet thick.

Second the autobahns where built not for public use but, a mover of German Panzer and Mech Divisions quickly. In addition they doubled as additional runways for the Luftwaffe. The Germans had already a massive slave labor org in place ruled by the SS and they had thousands of volunteers from occupied countries working for them producing many weapons in secure locations.

So think about this, Germany has not fought the USAAF trying to stop the massive B-17 daylight bombing raids. her industrial cities are intact because she moved production below ground. This in turn makes null and void RAF Bomber Command night time raids. German military might would have been massive since it was not expending a alot men and equipment against a united Allies of Russia, USA and Britian. Its frontier Forces could be rotated back for replenishment and R & R and fresh Divisions put in their place. Panzer Divisions would have been at full TOE nor reduced by a entire battalion of tanks or a lack of transport.

The German armed Forces were not defeated after the Battle of the Buldge. Many German Field Marshals just got tired of the war of attrition and surrendered thier commands after destroying all combat equipment. Some Army groups that surrendered numbered several hundred thousand troops in each group. The Germans marched goose stepping into captivity not as defeated troops but one who willing surrendered to the Western allies. Not the Russians. That meant death or harsh treatment as POWS.

German Z plan, now if the Bismarck had sortied with the Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugene with a strong destroyer group as was originally planned the Royal Navy would have had a hard time trying to bring enough force to take it out. The RN was already streached to the max and had no additional heavy units to spare.

Hitler removed His Battleship Admiral Grand Admiral Reader and replaced him with Admiral Donitz a submarine Commander. If the Bismarck raider group had been successful the Z-plan would not have been scrapped and the allies would have had a formidable Kreigsmarine to deal with. I am sure the RAF and Costal Command would have constanly bombed them in port but with the fighter cover available around Wihelmshaven and Kiel naval bases it would have cost the RAF many planes and crews.

Were did this information come from you may ask? I personally have talked with many WWII German Army and British RAF and Army Vets in the early 1980s and I am a 31 year recently retired military vet and I was stationed in Europe for 5 years. In addition I have studied WWII in depth and I own an extensive library of facts written by the men who fought it.

Now you ask did every rank and file German soldier know about the holocaust as it was taking place? The answer is no, 90 percent had no clue and if they heard rumors the SS under Himmler would order exterminations to cease and areas santized then route an German Army Group going to the Russian Front by rail thru Auswitch Berkeneau, Treblinka and Riga. They saw Jewish Orchestras, well clothed and well fed Jewish gardners, bakers and well keep homes and many Jewish childern playing on play grounds with German SS members children. All wore yellow stars of David on their clothing When these soldiers asked about the smoke stacks and underground gas chambers they were told by the SS it was the IG Farbin chemical, tire and engine factories and the bunkers were bomb shelters for the workers, prisoners and the guards. These units in turn after three days re-trained and deployed to the front were they told the other troops the rumors of the death camps were just allied proproganda. Most will tell you they did not believe these places of death exsisted until after the war when the US, British and Russians discovered them. Field Marshal Rommel when he found out in person requested Hitler to drop Zyklon B on London and Antwerp instead of killing Jews with it.

German Engineers and Scientists developed heavy water in Norway, a first step in creating a hydrogen bomb. We and the English took out that plant in a daring secret raid on it.

Now prevailing wind patterns over Northern Europe are as stated in a previous thread. Russian and Polish Cities would have felt the brunt of nuclear fall out not England or France. Look at Lock N Loads Nuke Winter game if you want a serious discussion and AH for the Germans after a Nuclear war on Germany. Hitler's dead and Himmler and the SS run everything.

SO if the USA DW on Germany in 1944 and attacked it would have been in for one long drawn out fight. Do not forget the Germans have had 4 years to prepare for it.
Now throw all this into the AH timeline for discussion.
 
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