Hitler doesn't Declare war on America in support of Japan
- Thread starter SAVORYapple
- Start date
The USA declares war on Nazi Germany anyway.
Next!
I thought that particular declaration was in response to Hitler's declaration of war.
It happens sooner rather than later, it's been stated here before that America and Germany had effectively been at war for months before Pearl Harbour. Some final act of provocation would have resulted in a formal declaration.
I reckon that Roosevelt would have made some highly unreasonable declaration, for example demanding all countries cease ties with Japan until the end of the war, and when Germany does cease ties, Roosevelt uses it as an excuse to ask for a declaration of war.*
Flubber
Banned
As it says on the tin.
Then the US would declare on Germany within weeks. Consider this chain of events:
7 December 41 - We all know what happens. The US and Britain are now allies in a war against Japan.
Second week of December 41 - The US begins shipping war materials directly to Britain because Britain is a US ally in the war against Japan.
Second week of December 41 - German U-boats sight US merchant ships steaming to Britain and, because they don't have crystal balls which can differentiate materials which will be used against Japan from materials which will be used against Germany, they sink some of the US merchant ships.
Second week of December 41 - FDR tells Congress that Germany has sunk US merchant ships carrying war materials to a US all in the war against Japan. Congress declares war on Japan.
Hitler was a madman but, before his doctors turned him into a junkie in '44, he wasn't fucking stupid. He knew that the US and Britain were now actual, bona fide, fully legal, allies in a war against Japan, he knew the US would begin shipping war materials to Britain because of that alliance, he knew there was no way in hell you could separate materials to be used against Japan from materials to be used against Germany, and he knew Germany had to sink those ships.
Declaring war when he did allowed Germany to choose when the war against the US would begin and not the other way around. Considering how well the Battle of the Atlantic went in the first six months of 1942, having Germany choose when the war began was a good decision.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Germany had already gotten 2 US DD and nearly got the Texas before Pearl Harbor, war would come one way or another
Snake Featherston
Banned
To be blunt the only change after the declaration was to make an undeclared war a declared war and thus legal under international law. There was no great sweeping sea change (pun intended) in the nature of the war in December 1941 from Hitler's POV.
Shadow Master
Banned
I feel obligated to toss this out there as well:
What if Germany denounces Japan's sneak attack on the US, and uses that as a pretext to declare war....
ON JAPAN?!?!
Does even FDR think he can get congress to declare war on Germany after Germany declares war on America's attacker? Germany (and the US/UK) would find themselves in a very unusual situation if this clever ploy were attempted.
Think about it.
The USA is going to be all 'out-for-blood' against Japan, but suddenly finds herself a co-beligerent with both Germany and the UK, who just happen to be at war with each other.
Can you say mediation?
Germany offers the US the services of the entire U-boat waffa(sp), immediately upon the USA successfully negotiating a UK/German peace treaty, as with the war in the atlantic being over now there will be no need for them there.
If this ploy is properly carried out, it could easily change the entire face of the war for Germany. With a co-beligerent USA getting cought short, does Germany regain her trade with the USA/rest of the world? No RAF/USAAF bombing campaign?
On the other hand, even if this ploy fails, what exactly is the cost to Germany?
What if Germany denounces Japan's sneak attack on the US, and uses that as a pretext to declare war....
ON JAPAN?!?!
Does even FDR think he can get congress to declare war on Germany after Germany declares war on America's attacker? Germany (and the US/UK) would find themselves in a very unusual situation if this clever ploy were attempted.
Think about it.
The USA is going to be all 'out-for-blood' against Japan, but suddenly finds herself a co-beligerent with both Germany and the UK, who just happen to be at war with each other.
Can you say mediation?
Germany offers the US the services of the entire U-boat waffa(sp), immediately upon the USA successfully negotiating a UK/German peace treaty, as with the war in the atlantic being over now there will be no need for them there.
If this ploy is properly carried out, it could easily change the entire face of the war for Germany. With a co-beligerent USA getting cought short, does Germany regain her trade with the USA/rest of the world? No RAF/USAAF bombing campaign?
On the other hand, even if this ploy fails, what exactly is the cost to Germany?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Ploy won't work Germany was unofficially allied with Japan, backstabbing them will tell off any of their allies or neutrals that they can't be trusted
Also Germany and the US were de facto already at war, Germany had already sank two US naval vessels and nearly sank a Battleship (the Texas)
This would cost Germany the second happy time and Operation Drumbeat
Shadow Master
Banned
Think about what Hitler had sold to the German people about all his racial junk. Now remember what you just said about their 'unofficial' alliance howith Japan (which, by the way, had already backstabbed Germany by refusing to hit the USSR from behind - at least to the German high command's point of view anyway), and also remember that the American people were not aware (nor supportive of) FDR's illeagle use of American military forces around the world. Just because FDR had not gotten impeached for illeagelly ordering US warships to engage German submarines and aircraft out in the atlantic to that point, imagine him trying to get a DoW against Germany after Germany DoW's Japan.
As far as no one trusting Germany: Who, in their right minds, still trusted Germany in late 1941?
As for the second 'happy time', which would have beniffited Nazi Germany more, sinking many merchant ships off the US esatern seaboard? Or never having to fight the USA at all? And what about the real possibility of Germany regaining it's trade and securing it's western flank while they concentrate entirely upon the USSR?
Maybe this needs it's own thread to properly explore the possibilities...
If something like this were tried then it would be immediately denounced by the allies (including a lot of people in the USA) as a cynical and ridiculous ploy to try and divert the USA away from supporting the UK.
No-one would take it seriously, and the press would have a field day drawing parrallels between the actions of Japan in Asia and the actions of the Nazis in Europe.
Any action by the USA other than an immediate and determined refusal of any offer by the nazis would do massive damage to their image around the world, not something that they would ignore!
Not to mention that it could easily backfire on the nazis anyway, as all the USA would need to do is turn around and state that "in the spirit of co-operation against the Japanese menace" germany should immediately and without delay withdraw from ALL occupied countries which they had taken by force and cease all attacks against the UK and its territories. Thats an end to the battle in the atlantic..... Cant see Hitler agreeing to do that.
The interesting stuff would be the butterflies from such a small action later on.
How about if Germany break ties with Japan, officially denouncing the sneak attack but no declaration of war? By that time, inter-axis co-operation is quite minimal anyway. This would be a more plausible scenario and would gain a bit of support(?) for German-friendly elements in the US.
The US would eventually find a pretext to declare war on Germany if the U-boat campaign continued west of the British Isles. A few more sunken boats would do it. It wouldn't be surprising if FDR would send a few naval ships, most likely obsolete escorts, hoping for them to get sunk by U-boats. A war with Japan but slightly less hostile relations with Germany might convince the US to expend all its efforts in taking down Japan before the DOW on Germany.
Nevertheless, delayed US entry to the war has its own well established butterflies but a Japan-first military strategy would be highly interesting. MacArthur might even get his way
.No US entry to the war however would require a further POD back for Germany to not antagonize the US and reconcile instead. WW1 is the biggest culprit. But that far back might butterfly away the Nazi Party.
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BlairWitch749
Banned
the DOW could have happened earlier forgetting even the potting of destroyers... a U-boat accidently got inside the screen of the Yorktown when she was on a neutrality patrol in march 1941
have some sort of incident where the u-boat torpedoes and sinks the Yorktown, boom DOW
have some sort of incident where the u-boat torpedoes and sinks the Yorktown, boom DOW
Interesting. A March 41 USA DOW on Germany, would Hitler still have invaded Russia anyway?????
Does Japan still occupy Indochina in July 1941 and thus start the path torward her entry or would the US and Japan be more motivated to find a peaceful solution (i.e no oil embargo).
While it would probably become necessary sooner or later for the US to declare war on Germany for a number of the reasons given (not the least of which is the fact that Hitler wanted war with the US) there might be some factors to delay this. While the idea that Germany would attempt to forestall a US entry into the European War by declaring war on Japan is poppycock, what if Germany responded by:
(1) expressing surprise and outrage at the Japanese attack and (together with Italy) abrogating its anti-comintern alliance with Japan;
(2) acknowleging the US alliance with Britain in the Pacific war but stating that this does not automatically render the USA a British ally in the European War;
(3) Stating that Germany understands that US shipments of war material to British possessions and dominions in the Pacific Theatre will be accelerated and that Germany will take no action against US merchant ships operating outside the north atlantic and/or not heading toward the British Isles (how much US aid intended for British, and ANZAC forces in the Pacific War actually flowed through Britain anyway?)
If Germany made statements such as this, I personally believe it could embolden isolationists in congress who never wanted to enter the European War to possibly reject any request by FDR for a declaration of war against Germany and Italy. Almost certainly Germany would eventually do something to let FDR get his war against Germany, but as has been noted the sinking of US merchants and warships by U-boats up to then had not been sufficient. The undeclared naval and trade war against Germany would no doubt continue, but that's a far cry from sending millions of US soldiers to north africa and Europe.
(1) expressing surprise and outrage at the Japanese attack and (together with Italy) abrogating its anti-comintern alliance with Japan;
(2) acknowleging the US alliance with Britain in the Pacific war but stating that this does not automatically render the USA a British ally in the European War;
(3) Stating that Germany understands that US shipments of war material to British possessions and dominions in the Pacific Theatre will be accelerated and that Germany will take no action against US merchant ships operating outside the north atlantic and/or not heading toward the British Isles (how much US aid intended for British, and ANZAC forces in the Pacific War actually flowed through Britain anyway?)
If Germany made statements such as this, I personally believe it could embolden isolationists in congress who never wanted to enter the European War to possibly reject any request by FDR for a declaration of war against Germany and Italy. Almost certainly Germany would eventually do something to let FDR get his war against Germany, but as has been noted the sinking of US merchants and warships by U-boats up to then had not been sufficient. The undeclared naval and trade war against Germany would no doubt continue, but that's a far cry from sending millions of US soldiers to north africa and Europe.
Flubber
Banned
And then watches a stream of US merchant ships steam across the Atlantic resupplying Britain for the war against Japan?
Is there going to be some sort of umpire at work making sure all those US supplies are only used against Japan? Sorry, you can only eat that Spam when you're forging artillery shells that will be shipped to the Pacific...
Nevertheless, delayed US entry to the war has its own well established butterflies but a Japan-first military strategy would be highly interesting. MacArthur might even get his way
As is explained weekly on this board, a Japan First effort would require a certain number of warships and those warships will not begin being available until 1943.
Flubber
Banned
Let me explain it again...
Germany and the US have been fighting an undeclared naval war in the Atlantic since the creation of the Neutrality Patrol in 1940.
After 7 Dec 41 the US and UK now allies fighting Japan and the US will move to supply her ally in that war.
Germany cannot allow those supplies to reach the UK because there isn't some Cosmic Umpire making sure said supplies will only be used against Japan.
Germany will sink US supply ships because it must and, when it does, the US and Germany will be at war.
It's not a matter of IF there will be a war between the US and Germany, it's a matter of WHEN there will be a war between the US and Germany. The war was now a foregone conclusion because of the US-UK alliance against Japan, so Hitler decided to begin the war at a time of his choosing. Every week he delayed would have meant the US was stronger and more ready. By striking as soon as he did, he struck the US when it was as weak as it would ever be in the war Germany could not prevent.
Do you understand now?
Yes, it will happen eventually, but Lend-Lease has been going on for about 9 months by the time PH comes off and Roosevelt hasn't come up with any casus belli, and don't go spouting the old "they're an ally of Japan" excuse because that's worth absolutely nothing, Italy didn't declare war on Britain until 1940, and Japan never declared war on the Soviet Union.
They could get Germany eventually on unrestricted submarine warfare though.