Hitler Dies The Night of July 20 Coup

[MerryPrankster]

Blairwitch said in the "Historical Figures With Mental Issues" thread that Hitler had suffered a traumatic brain injury in the July 20 bombing.

Brain injuries can be weird things--Liam Neeson's late wife fell and hit her head, seemed fine, and was dead within a few hours. Brain bleeds, you know.

So...

WI Hitler survives the bombing per OTL, presides over the suppression of Von Stauffenberg and their ilk, and then dies that night in his sleep?

V.S. and the immediate Valkyrie plotters are doomed, but some of the ones nailed later on (like the guy in Wolf's Lair's communications bunker) might be overlooked in the factionalism following Hitler's death.

 

[Reichenfaust]

Blairwitch said in the "Historical Figures With Mental Issues" thread that Hitler had suffered a traumatic brain injury in the July 20 bombing.

Brain injuries can be weird things--Liam Neeson's late wife fell and hit her head, seemed fine, and was dead within a few hours. Brain bleeds, you know.

So...

WI Hitler survives the bombing per OTL, presides over the suppression of Von Stauffenberg and their ilk, and then dies that night in his sleep?

V.S. and the immediate Valkyrie plotters are doomed, but some of the ones nailed later on (like the guy in Wolf's Lair's communications bunker) might be overlooked in the factionalism following Hitler's death.

Civil war in Germany. No real collection of plotters like in Valkyrie to take over running the State, while killing all the other nazi leaders. Wehrmacht vs SS and Nazi's.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Snake Featherston sez:

Postwar German history blames German defeat on the July Criminals and all atrocities under Hitler to the SS which acted without Hitler's knowledge and the great myth of the treacherously murdered genius Hitler is invented. The Axis makes Hitler into a martyr and the July Criminals are seen as traitors who had sour grapes that Hitler was losing, not even opposed to Hitler, champion of the German people.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Postwar German history blames German defeat on the July Criminals and all atrocities under Hitler to the SS which acted without Hitler's knowledge and the great myth of the treacherously murdered genius Hitler is invented. The Axis makes Hitler into a martyr and the July Criminals are seen as traitors who had sour grapes that Hitler was losing, not even opposed to Hitler, champion of the German people.

I would imagine in TTL, postwar German history will whatever the Allies say it is.

 

[Paul V McNutt]

Postwar German history blames German defeat on the July Criminals and all atrocities under Hitler to the SS which acted without Hitler's knowledge and the great myth of the treacherously murdered genius Hitler is invented. The Axis makes Hitler into a martyr and the July Criminals are seen as traitors who had sour grapes that Hitler was losing, not even opposed to Hitler, champion of the German people.

How is it possible not to connect Hitler to the holocaust? Post war, the German people feel guilty, so the plotters are heroes. As for the rest of the war. I think that Georing concentrates on the Soviets. There is no Battle of the Bulge. The war ends earlier. The Germans are hurt by a power struggle between Goering and Himmler.

 

[RousseauX]

Now this is interesting: I personally see something like an alliance forged between the SS, the Party and the Wehrmacht to continue the war (unless -that- breaks down). The Nazi state will be headed by a defacto triumvirate (which is sort of what happened OTL anyway), of Himmler, Martin Bormann (and/or maybe Goebbels?), and a Heer general. And When I say Heer general, it's probably going to be someone with more spine than Keitel or Jodl: maybe Guderian, or maybe one of the field marshals who is acceptable to both the party and the army. Speers would probably get to continue to run the economy.

Goering by this point have lost too much power to be defaulted to a pivotal player.

 

[Julian]

Guderian and some other generals take over the show, with Goering serving as their puppet to keep the Nazi part in line. The SS is kept from outright mutinying via some purges in the upper ranks and some quick guarantees by the Wehrmacht that as long as they continue fighting the war no harm will come to the rest of them. The Holocaust and other projects remain on track (Unfortunately) and the war lasts slightly longer due to better German leadership, though they're still doomed by June 1945 at the latest (Ironically the war may end on June 22nd).

 

[Baruch]

How is it possible not to connect Hitler to the holocaust? Post war, the German people feel guilty, so the plotters are heroes. As for the rest of the war. I think that Georing concentrates on the Soviets. There is no Battle of the Bulge. The war ends earlier. The Germans are hurt by a power struggle between Goering and Himmler.

This is the kicker. I can even see Goering pulling troops from the west to fight a civil war with Himmler. Goering seems to have had more of a jones against communism than his other issues.

As to the mass murders, too many Germans knew about it. And Hitler had his fingerprints all over the camps.

So I agree that there will be a civil war with much of the action taking place in Italy and huge numbers of troops moved from west to east.

And no matter which side wins the battle, they have lost the war by virtue of the number of troops involved in the civil war. I can see Goering doing what he did in OTL, which was try and negotiate the best possible deal he could with a crap hand. I could see the result being the total collapse of the Italian front, Patton in Germany by September.

 

[Julian]

I don't see a civil war as very likely. The military has overwhelming superiority over all other factions in terms of raw firepower, and the Nazi Party apparatus (Excluding the SS) has no reason to want to reject the military. An alliance between Goering (Who the military would recognize as Hitler's legitimate successor) and Guderian along with most of the military leadership would quickly be able to utilize military resources and the Gestapo to suppress the leadership of the SS before offering amnesty to all other SS formations (The Waffen SS in particular) in exchange for their support of the new government and war effort. Most will likely be amicable to such an offer, since they'd still remain loyal to the Nazi Party and fight its enemies while avoiding being purged by the new government.

 

[simonbp]

One interesting result of Generals taking over: a better-led Wehrmacht does better against the Soviets and manages to create a somewhat static front for the rest of 1944. Meanwhile, the Western Allies are moving through France and Italy just as fast as IOTL, as after D-Day, that had nothing to with bad leadership and everything to do with the WAllies bountiful supply of fresh troops and supplies. A consequence of that could then be a very different Yalta and that the WAllies reach Berlin while the Soviets are still stuck much further East.

Thus, you get a situation with much less of Europe in the Soviet Sphere after the War, and a much weaker USSR overall. This would definitely lead to a very different Cold War. Alt-NATO might not even exist if they felt the threat from the Soviets was small enough. Likewise, the Soviets will be every last rouble on defense, just in case the triumphal West trys anything...

 

[MerryPrankster]

Why would the SS want to fight the Army at this point?

Are they still upset the Home Army tried to round them up earlier in the day?

 

[RousseauX]

One interesting result of Generals taking over: a better-led Wehrmacht does better against the Soviets and manages to create a somewhat static front for the rest of 1944.

How are they going to do this? This was after the start of Operation Bagration, how are they going to "create a static front" after army group center disappears?

 

[RousseauX]

I don't see a civil war as very likely. The military has overwhelming superiority over all other factions in terms of raw firepower, and the Nazi Party apparatus (Excluding the SS) has no reason to want to reject the military. An alliance between Goering (Who the military would recognize as Hitler's legitimate successor) and Guderian along with most of the military leadership would quickly be able to utilize military resources and the Gestapo to suppress the leadership of the SS before offering amnesty to all other SS formations (The Waffen SS in particular) in exchange for their support of the new government and war effort. Most will likely be amicable to such an offer, since they'd still remain loyal to the Nazi Party and fight its enemies while avoiding being purged by the new government.

*The Gestapo is an arm of the RHSA, under Himmler...so good luck with getting them to suppress Himmler
*The SS was not entirely a Nazi party apparatus, but a competitor by 1944
*The SS would go along with the whole thing: as mentioned, they have very little reason to oppose the army, and are indispensable to running the state without massive chaos that's going last months (which means end of Nazi Germany).
*Goering has lost all power by this point, he would not be wanted by anyone, except maybe as a front man when the power within the party is still held by people like Bormann and Goebbels

 

[Baruch]

Under Hitler's will at this time Goering is the heir to the state organs. Himler detests him so I can se him fighting over the matter.

The SS, under Himmler is a huge organization Himmler has to contest or die.

The army aligns under Goering, who is smart enough to copy Stalin and get out their way in the actual war fighting business.

Goering is going to focus on the preservation of Germany. He is not interested in taking Germany down with him like Hitler. I can see Goering making all kinds of deals with anyone he can. Not that anyone is willing to deal with him either, but the rest of the generals will re align the forces against Russia in hope that something will come up,

 

[RousseauX]

Under Hitler's will at this time Goering is the heir to the state organs. Himler detests him so I can se him fighting over the matter.

It doesn't matter that much: Hitler's dead and actual power (as oppose to official title) is not going to be decided based on Hitler's will, Hitler's will isn't going to reverse the huge shifts in power within the Nazi state while Hitler was alive. It wasn't just Himmler who didn't like Goering either.

 

[Julian]

*The Gestapo is an arm of the RHSA, under Himmler...so good luck with getting them to suppress Himmler
*The SS was not entirely a Nazi party apparatus, but a competitor by 1944
*The SS would go along with the whole thing: as mentioned, they have very little reason to oppose the army, and are indispensable to running the state without massive chaos that's going last months (which means end of Nazi Germany).
*Goering has lost all power by this point, he would not be wanted by anyone, except maybe as a front man when the power within the party is still held by people like Bormann and Goebbels

The Gestapo was essentially an independent branch which, while officially under Himmler, would have been an independent player in any power struggle. It would likely side with the Wehrmacht and the Party in order to remove Himmler and assert itself more at the expense of the SS. Nazi Germany was a hodge podge of factions which had few qualms about betraying each other for a greater ammount of influence. Goering would be in charge by virtue of the fact that he would make an easy to control puppet for the Wehrmacht; having actual players in charge would weaken its grip.

 

[RousseauX]

The Gestapo was essentially an independent branch which, while officially under Himmler, would have been an independent player in any power struggle.

Can you expand on this?

 

[Snake Featherston]

I would imagine in TTL, postwar German history will whatever the Allies say it is.

I rather doubt it, the German generals were very good at blaming anyone and anything else other than their own mistakes for their defeats. They blamed the same Fuhrer they supposedly revered IOTL, they'd do even moreso ITTL.

How is it possible not to connect Hitler to the holocaust? Post war, the German people feel guilty, so the plotters are heroes. As for the rest of the war. I think that Georing concentrates on the Soviets. There is no Battle of the Bulge. The war ends earlier. The Germans are hurt by a power struggle between Goering and Himmler.

"Well, Hitler would have stopped it had he lived" would be how the ATL Wehrmacht fanboys would put it. Hitler the man was immensely popular, he understood how to work propaganda very well to this effect.

 

[Snake Featherston]

One interesting result of Generals taking over: a better-led Wehrmacht does better against the Soviets and manages to create a somewhat static front for the rest of 1944. Meanwhile, the Western Allies are moving through France and Italy just as fast as IOTL, as after D-Day, that had nothing to with bad leadership and everything to do with the WAllies bountiful supply of fresh troops and supplies. A consequence of that could then be a very different Yalta and that the WAllies reach Berlin while the Soviets are still stuck much further East.

Thus, you get a situation with much less of Europe in the Soviet Sphere after the War, and a much weaker USSR overall. This would definitely lead to a very different Cold War. Alt-NATO might not even exist if they felt the threat from the Soviets was small enough. Likewise, the Soviets will be every last rouble on defense, just in case the triumphal West trys anything...

THe sam army that kept getting the everloving shit kicked out of it by the Soviets and when given full operational freedom for the biggest battle of the war lost? The German generals of WWII were good only at PR when it came to their victories, and they were assured that the new Dolchstosslegende would be acceptable when the Cold War broke out.

 

[jmc247]

The WAllies would see a Goering/Gudarien government as the same as a Goering/Himmler government.

The real question here is if whoever takes over is stupid enough to order troops from the Eastern Front to the Western Front for a Battle of the Bulge. If they don't and simply decide to reinforce the Eastern Front then the WAllies take Berlin, of course Germany still gets divided up by the Soviet's and WAllies unless Stalin does something stupid.