Hitler dies in the july plot

You have to wonder how "valiant" the plotters would have remained once the WAllies rejected their surrender proposals. I can see them crumbling very quickly, unfortunately for them.


Yes i get it the wallies will reject the offer. So what ? The german army will stil go with every division to the east, leaving the west open to invasion. So the wallies will stil have to follow it, conquering a lot more territory then they did on our timeline, or not, maybe they will just take Germany and let the whermacht starv it self out fighting the soviets. We must remember, there is no Yalta yet, no peace of paper with percentages for Churchill to present Uncle Joe with. That only happened because Romania changed sides in a bad moment, and the soviets were aproaching Grece.
 
Yes i get it the wallies will reject the offer. So what ? The german army will stil go with every division to the east, leaving the west open to invasion. So the wallies will stil have to follow it, conquering a lot more territory then they did on our timeline, or not, maybe they will just take Germany and let the whermacht starv it self out fighting the soviets. We must remember, there is no Yalta yet, no peace of paper with percentages for Churchill to present Uncle Joe with. That only happened because Romania changed sides in a bad moment, and the soviets were aproaching Grece.

Doesn't fly.

If the offer is rejected, which it will be, the Germans do NOT strip one border to let their enemies advance faster.

And Yalta is still in effect.

And as others have said, if the peace offer is rejected, that plotters lose all credibility, and are likely not in charge.
 

Deleted member 1487

I think its most likely that a successful assassination just bogs Germany down in civil war and they collapse faster. No Battle of the Bulge or major attacks anywhere. The war probably ends 6 months early.
 
Ronald Regan for one thing. RR would not be the RR that we know if the war ends months earlier. Whatever happened to him between March 1945 in TTL and his death is going to be different. He will meet different people, be doing different things, different reports will be coming over the radio, different movies will be made. The cascading effects would be enormous! We aren't talking about him going next door to visit a neighbor or something five minutes before he did OTL but an early end to a world war. That is simply going to have massive butterfly effects.

I don't see how his life changes that much. His movie career has been interrupted and he still does not get the good roles he got before the war. He still gets more involved with SAG. He still gets the GE Theater job. Which requires him to tour GE plants and work on his public speaking skills. All that heads him into politics.
 
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Guys... it's all right. Paul V McNutt just doesn't understand butterflies. He never does.

I do, I just don't consider butterflies a magical force. I think things would change according to the facts at the time. So tell me what would change in the US ITTL. At least one president would not change. On July 20, 1944, Harry Truman is the Democratic candidate for Vice President. The Roosevelt Truman is going to win. Even tough Germany is collapsing in early November 1944 ITTL, everyone expects a long bloody struggle with Japan, so Democrats still have the don't swap horses in the middle of the stream argument. Lastly. FDR is still dying.

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I rather agree that the surviving Nazi leaders (and probably Himmler) would have a much better shot of taking over Germany than the plotters -- although I suppose one could imagine a scenario where Goring and some of the other Nazis who don't care for Himmler side with the plotters against Himmler.

If the plotters do succeed in taking over, they'll fairly quickly realize they have to choose between continuing the war and surrendering on both the Eastern and Western Front. I'm not really sure which they'd decide to do.

But if they continue the war, or if the non-Hitler Nazis seize power, I think the result is going to be fairly similar - a much quicker German defeat/surrender. One possibility from this is that we get a more generous eastern border for Germany - we might see Lower Silesia, Stettin, and Konigsberg, at least, staying German. One reason Stalin was able to get areas that had basically been entirely ethnic German included in Poland was because the Red Army was already there driving out the German population by the time of Yalta and certainly Potsdam. That won't necessarily be true in this TL.
 
Everything. The nature of the butterfly-effect is that it is cascading: one event changes which then changes more events that change more events which then change more events and so on in an ever-expanding exponential web. There is going to be very little that is not different from IOTL in a TL where Germany which calls it quits in the latter half of '44 by the time 1980 comes around. 40 years is a long time for those butterflies to flap their wings.

Surely this is an assumption, since we can't actually run experiments to see how one change affects other things. One might just as easily argue that underlying forces are sufficiently powerful that even seemingly major changes are not going to lead to drastically different outcomes.
 
Will the western allies really not take this chance to limit Soviet influence over eastern Europe and end the Nazi regime? I have some trouble with the idea that both the American and British leadership will let the coup plotters twist in the wind and suffer a Nazi counter coup out of loyalty to a pact with Stalin.
 
Churchill would likely favor a deal with the plotters, but I'm doubtful that Roosevelt would.

And it's not just about "loyalty to Stalin." It's about relations with the Soviet Union in the post-war world. Not even Churchill wants to end a war with Germany just to immediately get into a war with the Soviet Union in alliance with Germany, which is more or less what the plotters are proposing.
 
I do, I just don't consider butterflies a magical force. I think things would change according to the facts at the time. So tell me what would change in the US ITTL. At least one president would not change. On July 20, 1944, Harry Truman is the Democratic candidate for Vice President. The Roosevelt Truman is going to win. Even tough Germany is collapsing in early November 1944 ITTL, everyone expects a long bloody struggle with Japan, so Democrats still have the don't swap horses in the middle of the stream argument. Lastly. FDR is still dying.
The situation in post-war Europe will be different. If the Reich completely collapses the Allies could take more territory, or the Soviets could. Millions who would have died ITTL (including thousands of Americans) to go on and live their lives. The Yalta Conference hasn't been held yet so things like occupation zones, postwar borders, and even the status of various countries could change. All of that changes US foreign policy in the years to come. Europe would be less devastated, leading to economic changes which would effect the entire world. In short, everything would be different.
 
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