Hitler dies in 1938, how is he remembered?

Let's say he has a stroke a few days after Munich and annexing the Sudetenland.

Is he a hero? Still a villain? A more ambiguous figure?
 

Deleted member 1487

Probably viewed as the greatest politician since Bismarck. His success then is viewed horribly, as he presides over an economy that is overheated and may have to go to war to deal with it or beg the British for bridge loans to convert industry to civilian production.
 
Who follows him? If the person who follows him continues his anti-jewish plans as stated in Mein Kampf than he would be blamed for any atrocity that occurred. Germany may still invade France to avenge the Versailles Treaty.
 
Who follows him? If the person who follows him continues his anti-jewish plans as stated in Mein Kampf than he would be blamed for any atrocity that occurred. Germany may still invade France to avenge the Versailles Treaty.

Pretty much any given successor is more likely then not to flinch at the prospect of war until the overheating economy forces his hand in '41 or '42... at which point, the Anglo-French will have rearmed and reformed enough to smash any German attack.
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Who follows him? If the person who follows him continues his anti-jewish plans as stated in Mein Kampf than he would be blamed for any atrocity that occurred. Germany may still invade France to avenge the Versailles Treaty.

Goering is likely to succeed him, and basically become Mussolini: Reich Edition.

Goebbels and Von Ribbentrop are purged. Himmler takes over most state affairs once Georing begins to sink into a Morphine Coma. Holocaust will still occure, although perhaps not as brutally as IoTL- Goering is however the man who ordered Hydrich's final solution. He's also more inclined to the idea of Mittleuropa, in which small 'liberated' states are dominated by Germany and forced to feed the Reich materials.
 

Deleted member 1487

Goering is likely to succeed him, and basically become Mussolini: Reich Edition.

Goebbels and Von Ribbentrop are purged. Himmler takes over most state affairs once Georing begins to sink into a Morphine Coma. Holocaust will still occure, although perhaps not as brutally as IoTL- Goering is however the man who ordered Hydrich's final solution. He's also more inclined to the idea of Mittleuropa, in which small 'liberated' states are dominated by Germany and forced to feed the Reich materials.
Goebbels? Von Ribbentrop is getting fired for sure though. Himmler gets kept a professional arms length. Goering was not hooked on morphene at this point. The Holocaust was a product of the war, its not going to happen without a war starting because German society wouldn't tolerate it, it was only able to happen on foreign soil IOTL. As it was they freaked out over the T4 program and got it stopped:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4#Voices_of_opposition

and were able to stop some of the deportations of Jews:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenstrasse_protest

Goering wasn't particularly interested in the Holocaust IOTL even though he initially ordered it; he did that on Hitler order according to Richard Overy's biography of Goering (I'm not making the claim, Overy is). Without Hitler driving the Holocaust and Goering sucking up to his every whim to gain more power, its likely that the Holocaust doesn't happen, it just stops and depriving the Jews of rights and eventually citizenship, while stealing all their property.
http://www.amazon.com/Goering-Hitlers-Knight-Richard-Overy/dp/1848859325

Goering is going to have a lot less political capital than Hitler, as he just wasn't as popular. No Nazis were. As far as the Mitteleuropa scheme that was done through the policy of 'Grossraumökonomie' which was a series of barter agreements with the Balkans and other states that Germany was falling behind on fulfilling their end of the deals. Short of war it probably remains the system by which Germany uses trade deals and their large economy to dominate smaller states in the area. It will probably be a variant of Schacht's shadow trade empire idea:
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Shadow-Empire-Economics-Spanish/dp/0674728858/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
 
Hitler gone in 1938 ?
Maybe succesful assatination ?
Rudolph Hess was designated succesor than, born 26 April 1894 – died 17 August 1987.

It would be long and much darker Germany if he would succed to maintain power for life as Franco did.
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Goebbels? Von Ribbentrop is getting fired for sure though. Himmler gets kept a professional arms length. Goering was not hooked on morphene at this point.


Goebbles and Goering didn't have the best relationships, and were known to have been at one another's throats. Disposing him is disposing an potential rival. Goering had been a morphine addict since 1923, having become addicted following the Putsch.


The Holocaust was a product of the war, its not going to happen without a war starting because German society wouldn't tolerate it, it was only able to happen on foreign soil IOTL. As it was they freaked out over the T4 program and got it stopped:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4#Voices_of_opposition

and were able to stop some of the deportations of Jews:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenstrasse_protest

Goering wasn't particularly interested in the Holocaust IOTL even though he initially ordered it; he did that on Hitler order according to Richard Overy's biography of Goering (I'm not making the claim, Overy is). Without Hitler driving the Holocaust and Goering sucking up to his every whim to gain more power, its likely that the Holocaust doesn't happen, it just stops and depriving the Jews of rights and eventually citizenship, while stealing all their property.
http://www.amazon.com/Goering-Hitlers-Knight-Richard-Overy/dp/1848859325


The Holocaust would be simply become further Aryanization in that case.

Hitler gone in 1938 ?
Maybe succesful assatination ?
Rudolph Hess was designated succesor than, born 26 April 1894 – died 17 August 1987.

It would be long and much darker Germany if he would succed to maintain power for life as Franco did.

Hess was Hitlers Deputy- literally his Personal Assistant. This position, whilst giving him incredible powers, was not one that placed him as the successor. It would only be in the case of both Hitler and Goering dying (and even then the line of succession wasn't in place until 1939) that Hess would become leader, and it would be unlikely to be a permanent vocation.
 

Deleted member 1487

Goebbles and Goering didn't have the best relationships, and were known to have been at one another's throats. Disposing him is disposing an potential rival. Goering had been a morphine addict since 1923, having become addicted following the Putsch.
He was put into detox in 1927 (IIRC the date) and kicked it by the time was was elected to office on the Nazi ticket. His only additions at that point were power, food, and shopping (he missed a meeting he flew to Austria for in 1942 to go shopping for jewelry in Vienna).

The Holocaust would be simply become further Aryanization in that case.
Assuming there is no war or expansion beyond the Sudetenland and Austria there isn't going to be genocide, they'd just keep forcing Jews out of the country; in Germany between 1933-39 over half of the Jewish population emigrated and they'd probably keep that up for Austrian and Czech Jews that were annexed in 1938.

Hess was Hitlers Deputy- literally his Personal Assistant. This position, whilst giving him incredible powers, was not one that placed him as the successor. It would only be in the case of both Hitler and Goering dying (and even then the line of succession wasn't in place until 1939) that Hess would become leader, and it would be unlikely to be a permanent vocation.
Agreed. However Goering was only named Hitler's legal successor after the war started in 1939, so at this point there is no defined successor and Hess as deputy-Führer has the most likely claim with the public compared to Goering. Goering though had the biggest standing in the party to take over without Hitler.
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
He was put into detox in 1927 (IIRC the date) and kicked it by the time was was elected to office on the Nazi ticket. His only additions at that point were power, food, and shopping (he missed a meeting he flew to Austria for in 1942 to go shopping for jewelry in Vienna).

Fair enough; I'm aware of his detox, however I'm unsure when he was back on Morphine.

Assuming there is no war or expansion beyond the Sudetenland and Austria there isn't going to be genocide, they'd just keep forcing Jews out of the country; in Germany between 1933-39 over half of the Jewish population emigrated and they'd probably keep that up for Austrian and Czech Jews that were annexed in 1938.

I agree, further Aryanization.

Agreed. However Goering was only named Hitler's legal successor after the war started in 1939, so at this point there is no defined successor and Hess as deputy-Führer has the most likely claim with the public compared to Goering. Goering though had the biggest standing in the party to take over without Hitler.

That was my internal logic on the idea- Hess has little base to take control, and would appear to be happy to continue in his position, whilst Goering as the capital to move in.
 
Hitler had set things up so that whoever succeeded him in 1938 would be forced to either go to war or do some massive economic restructuring.

The German economy was a mess from the aftermath of WWI and the depression and Hitler used deficit spending to make life better for the average German by creating jobs to get rid of unemployment.

However the deficit spending and growing national debt was not sustainable. If Germany had not gone to war in 1939 the economy would not have been able to last long. Taking some drastic austerity measures would be necessary to fix things, but Göring or Hess or whoever was in charge would have a hard time convincing the people that their lives would need to get worse again for the long-term good of Germany.
 
If Germany had not gone to war in 1939 the economy would not have been able to last long. Taking some drastic austerity measures would be necessary to fix things, but Göring or Hess or whoever was in charge would have a hard time convincing the people that their lives would need to get worse again for the long-term good of Germany.

Not to mention convincing the military (who did not think kindly of anyone in the Nazi Party other then Hitler) that they'll have to sacrifice their own rearmament plan. This, combined with the fact that the economic strains are not transparently visible upon the German people yet, would probably convince whatever Nazi successor to post-pone the war for now. By 1941 or 1942, at the absolute latest, it would have become clear that Germany this would have altered radically.

The problem for Germany is that, by then, the WAllies (and maybe even the Soviets, in the case of a 1942 start date) would have rearmed and reformed their armies to the point that they could smash any German invasion. This was apparently something that, of all the people in the German leadership civilian and military, only Hitler recognized and was the prime reason he was so insistent on war in '38 or '39 despite everybody else being less-then-confident about it. Hitler had the personal charisma and trust (of both others and in his own intuition) to run through such objections and start a general war at precisely the right time that Germany stood the best chance of winning it, something any conceivable successor would have lacked.
 
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