Hitler dies 1/12/33

What would be the effects of this? In particular, I want to know who would take over for Schleicher and, later on, Hindenburg (butterflies willing). How would the effect Nazi Germany overall, especially in the 1930s (this is where my interest is), and how would this affect any ideas/plans for potential rearmament?
 
What would be the effects of this? In particular, I want to know who would take over for Schleicher and, later on, Hindenburg (butterflies willing). How would the effect Nazi Germany overall, especially in the 1930s (this is where my interest is), and how would this affect any ideas/plans for potential rearmament?

Göring.

In fact, Schleicher may strike a deal with him before Papen can.

Presumably Kanzler Göring will be as ruthless in dealing with the SA as Hitler was OTL, but the Night of the Long Knives will stop at that. (IOW Göring himself crossed Kronprinz Wilhelm's name off the list of those to be killed.) Schleicher may end up Reichspräsident after Hindenburg dies, but the emergency laws (assuming van der Lubbe burns down the Reichstag building on schedule) may deprive him of any power to block things.

Rearmament should go through, but Göring will be less audacious, and may not move into the Rhineland, for exmaple.

There will be less radical anti-Semitism, but there will still be an effort to push the Jews out of Germany, perhaps more arbitrary, with more certificates of Aryanization handed out along with stricter Nuremburg Laws.

Beyond that, there are butterflies. The situation in Austria, the relationships with Czechoslavakia, Poland, the USSR . . .
 
I dont understand this thread. Hitler was Chancellor by December. His successor would be Goering.

As to how it would affect Germany, perhaps World War Two butterflied away?
 
Hindenburg appoints someone else as Chancellor. World War II and all the other nonsense is butterflied away.
 
The Nazis were too strong to get rid of them. Goring was as racist, but less radical about it, he might go for the Rhineland and Austria, but would probably stop there. German would slowly become a member of the European community, and with no WWII, the Depression lasts more into the 40's, and perhaps a cold war averted, since all sides were still weak.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The Nazis still comes to power, Göring was everybit as popular as Hitler (and more so among the Junkers), but the new regime lok more like Italy, Göring wasn't a nice person but neither was he a lunatic like Hitler. He's more careful and diplomatic. While Göring had no love for the Jews, neither did he feel Hitler animosity, so we likely see a less agressive politic against Jews, one which lay weight on assimilation instead of annihilation (I imagine that the Nazi will turn into moere standard Fascists). We will still see a militarisation of the Rhineland, and quite likely a unification with Austria (through it may happen earlier with more support from the Austrian government) there's no reason the Munich agrement won't happen, through Göring will likely keep from invading Czechia afterward. The last act of expantion will against Poland, and without a invasion of Czechia the allies will likely keep peace with Germany. If the Allies really try to stop ghim he will likely back down.
 
The Nazis still comes to power, Göring was everybit as popular as Hitler (and more so among the Junkers), but the new regime lok more like Italy, Göring wasn't a nice person but neither was he a lunatic like Hitler. He's more careful and diplomatic. While Göring had no love for the Jews, neither did he feel Hitler animosity, so we likely see a less agressive politic against Jews, one which lay weight on assimilation instead of annihilation (I imagine that the Nazi will turn into moere standard Fascists). We will still see a militarisation of the Rhineland, and quite likely a unification with Austria (through it may happen earlier with more support from the Austrian government) there's no reason the Munich agrement won't happen, through Göring will likely keep from invading Czechia afterward. The last act of expantion will against Poland, and without a invasion of Czechia the allies will likely keep peace with Germany. If the Allies really try to stop ghim he will likely back down.
I think only a mad man, like Hitler would be able to get the Rhineland, Austria and Sudetenland in the short timefrom Hitler got them. Hitler was playing woth fire, hoping for a war, he only got with Poland. German leader that are more sane than Hitler (or less insane) would not take the risks Hitler did. So I suspect that it will either take a lot longer to annex Austria and Sudetenland, or it won't happen at all. Also without war, I doubt anyone would be able to get West-Prussia let alone Posen from Poland, so I think annexing Danzig would be were it all ends. Although, maybe after a couple of decades, with the rise of the Communist menace in the east, western Europe might be willing to look away if a fascist Germany, that proved no threat to the west, tried to strengthen it self from the dangers in the east by annexing the lost parts of their former empire.

I wonder if Goering would try to reclaim south Tirol, Elzass-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy or northern Schleswig. All of which would get Germany into a war they should not want to get into.
 
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I think only a mad man, like Hitler would be able to get the Rhineland, Austria and Sudetenland in the short timefrom Hitler got them. Hitler was playing woth fire, hoping for a war, he only got with Poland. German leader that are more sane than Hitler (or less insane) would not take the risks Hitler did.

Counterargument: the western entente were willing to give away everything until it was made more than obvious that Hitler would never stop. The remilitarisation of the Rhineland was part of "general restructuring of Europe" that we proposed even before Hitler fait-accompli. Goerring, who will likely be more tactful about militarisation and his goals (IIRC, he favoured "Anschluss by stealth"), can easily get what he wants, not by riskily barging in but by smooth-talking the receptive Entente.

So I suspect that it will either take a lot longer to annex Austria and Sudetenland, or it won't happen at all. Also without war, I doubt anyone would be able to get West-Prussia let alone Posen from Poland, so I think annexing Danzig would be were it all ends. Although, maybe after a couple of decades, with the rise of the Communist menace in the east, western Europe might be willing to look away if a fascist Germany, that proved no threat to the west, tried to strengthen it self from the dangers in the east by annexing the lost parts of their former empire.

Chamberlain was still trying to find a compromise involving Polish territory in '39. How much more likely, then, if Goerring appears to be the fairly trustworthy bearer of German grievances, rather than an oathbreaking nutjob like Hitler?

I wonder if Goering would try to reclaim south Tirol, Elzass-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy or northern Schleswig. All of which would get Germany into a wat they should not want to get into.

I doubt it. There's nothing in North Schleswig, and it's so indisputably Danish that even the Nazis left it under Danish civil administration, IIRC. Eupen-Malmedy is nothing, and Alsace is too much.
 
I wonder if Goering would try to reclaim south Tirol, Elzass-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy or northern Schleswig. All of which would get Germany into a wat they should not want to get into.

I don't think he would've gone to the point of war. Once the rest of Europe starts saying "Enough is enough," he's going to have to stop. But until then, he's probably going to keep pushing. Goering wanted Germany's 1914 borders. He didn't want control over all of Europe and Russia.

Of course, even if he did go to war, we might have some interesting differences. He didn't want Russia, which means less of a chance of a Barbarossa. So we might get an opportunity to see a WW2 with a neutral Soviet Union, which would really fuck the Allies over...
 
Counterargument: the western entente were willing to give away everything until it was made more than obvious that Hitler would never stop. The remilitarisation of the Rhineland was part of "general restructuring of Europe" that we proposed even before Hitler fait-accompli. Goerring, who will likely be more tactful about militarisation and his goals (IIRC, he favoured "Anschluss by stealth"), can easily get what he wants, not by riskily barging in but by smooth-talking the receptive Entente.



Chamberlain was still trying to find a compromise involving Polish territory in '39. How much more likely, then, if Goerring appears to be the fairly trustworthy bearer of German grievances, rather than an oathbreaking nutjob like Hitler?

We now know that he most likely would get away with annexing Austria and the Sudetenland and possibly could have gotten even more (at least Danzig). The question is would Goering* realise it. I believe Hitler didn't and he was preparing for war, which he only got after Poland. I suspect that other people than Hitler would be more cautious and don't try to push his luck. I think that we can see an Austrian Anschluss around the same time as OTL (maybe one or two years later), an Danzig Anschluss in the mid forties, an German Sudentenland in the late forties and in the fifties maybe a German west Prussia (and possibly Posen) after a war against Poland, which is tolerated by the west because of a fear of the Soviets.



* I really should find out how to type an o Umlaut on this computer Goering with oe looks stupid.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I think only a mad man, like Hitler would be able to get the Rhineland, Austria and Sudetenland in the short timefrom Hitler got them. Hitler was playing woth fire, hoping for a war, he only got with Poland. German leader that are more sane than Hitler (or less insane) would not take the risks Hitler did. So I suspect that it will either take a lot longer to annex Austria and Sudetenland, or it won't happen at all. Also without war, I doubt anyone would be able to get West-Prussia let alone Posen from Poland, so I think annexing Danzig would be were it all ends. Although, maybe after a couple of decades, with the rise of the Communist menace in the east, western Europe might be willing to look away if a fascist Germany, that proved no threat to the west, tried to strengthen it self from the dangers in the east by annexing the lost parts of their former empire.

I wonder if Goering would try to reclaim south Tirol, Elzass-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy or northern Schleswig. All of which would get Germany into a war they should not want to get into.

The problem are that he need to remilitarised the Rhineland if he fail at that, he is going to lack internal support to keep the regime in place. Göring are a charming and diplomatic man, and will likely not alienate the Austrian governments, to Sudetenland Germany got it peaceful in OTL and Göring was the guy behind it, so even here I can see him get away with it. In Poland he will go after Danzig while trying to provoke a war with Poland (and likely succed) to get more. With South Tirol, Elzass-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy or northern Schleswig I think he may take it if he gain the oppotunity, but if not I think he accept the loss. Neither North Schleswig or Eupen-Malmedy are worth a conflict or alienating Belgium and Denmark, AL can only be retaken in a wider conflict, while South Tirol are a possibility if Mussolini start a wider conflict (like invade Greece and Yugoslavia).
 

DAMIENEVIL

Banned
GOERING was the one who pushed for the annexation of austria in the first place Hitler wanted after the failure of the Nazi putsch earlier to create a customs union with how fast things went due to Goering he annexed it. Goering would have created a bigger meaner air wing but would the ground army have been as well funded?

Goering wanted war just differently he was also as radical about his hatred of the jews as hitler was he was just alot more subtle about it
 
GOERING was the one who pushed for the annexation of austria in the first place Hitler wanted after the failure of the Nazi putsch earlier to create a customs union with how fast things went due to Goering he annexed it.

Goerring was the inner circle member most militant about the existence of Austria, but my source suggested that it was Goerring who sketched the Anschluss-by-stealth idea, and then circumstances led the Nazis to roll in with their armed forces. Some historians even suggest Hitler hadn't settled on direct and immediate annexation until his rapturous reception at Linz.

Goering would have created a bigger meaner air wing but would the ground army have been as well funded?

"Would there have been a general war?" is the more immediate question.

Goering wanted war just differently he was also as radical about his hatred of the jews as hitler was he was just alot more subtle about it

Goerring probably wanted a war with the Soviets if at all possible, but he was eminently less insane than Hitler, even if he was also a bloodthirsty ideologue. Anyway, "I decide who is a Jew" (I know he did not in fact say that, but it reflects his attitude pretty well). Any evidence for your assertions?
 
So the consensus is that Goering would follow OTL Hitler (albiet more subtly and efficiently) but would most likely not go to war with France? Would France and Britain still get involved if Germany invaded Poland and then went after the Soviets?
 
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