Hitler collapse mid-way through battle of Franch

Might a non Hitler be sensible enough to delay Barbarosa until after defeating Britian? Would he also avoid declaring war on the US?
 
Might a non Hitler be sensible enough to delay Barbarosa until after defeating Britian? Would he also avoid declaring war on the US?

Not really. The entire military establishment believed victory was assured, much less the Party itself. Plus it's a major goal of the Nazis as a whole to secure the east and exterminate the Slavs. Goering isn't just going to forget that.
 
I'd have to think that if Hitler died, a lot of people are going to wind up fired and replaced no matter who came to power.

Himmler and Hess are both off the wall crazy, Goring is a drug addict...

The Wehrmacht is very powerful at this point, and I think they're going to have more influence in whoever replaces Hitler. Goring, probably takes power temporarily, but he doesn't really govern. More competent people probably wind up running things.
 
Not really. The entire military establishment believed victory was assured, much less the Party itself. Plus it's a major goal of the Nazis as a whole to secure the east and exterminate the Slavs. Goering isn't just going to forget that.

That was Hitler's goals, that was many of the true believers in the SS's goals. That was far from the goals of most Germans in the Army in 1940 as well as the government. Get rid of Hitler in 1940 and all bets are off for what will happen over the next few years.
 
That was Hitler's goals, that was many of the true believers in the SS's goals. That was far from the goals of most Germans in the Army in 1940 as well as the government. Get rid of Hitler in 1940 and all bets are off for what will happen over the next few years.

No, they definately wanted to invade the Soviet Union too. Everyone thought they could defeat it fairly easily, especially after Germany's performance in France and the Soviet failures in Finland.
 
No, they definately wanted to invade the Soviet Union too. Everyone thought they could defeat it fairly easily, especially after Germany's performance in France and the Soviet failures in Finland.

Most generals but not all, that said invading the Soviet Union does not equal mass murdering and enslaving the Slavs, even if the invasion happens there is no guarantee that in a post Hitler government that the people of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union will be so horribly treated they rally around Stalin as happened in the origional time line. It would massively change the dynamics of the war in the East if the SS are marginalized in a post Hitler government.
 
Bismark never invaded Russia in the first place and would have done anything in reach to break the pact between Russia and France.
 
Most generals but not all, that said invading the Soviet Union does not equal mass murdering and enslaving the Slavs, even if the invasion happens there is no guarantee that in a post Hitler government that the people of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union will be so horribly treated they rally around Stalin as happened in the original time line. It would massively change the dynamics of the war in the East if the SS are marginalized in a post Hitler government.

Oh, no, I wasn't saying the Wehrmacht was staffed by mass murderers. My meaning was that the Nazi's policy was to exterminate the Slavs, destroy Communism, and acquire living space in the east to forge a major empire to rival Britain and the US. The generals supported this policy either because they were committed Nazis or far right supporters who wanted to see a strong Germany and destroy Communism, or weren't ideologically aligned with the Nazis per say (But still very right wing) and were militarists who thought that defeating the Soviet Union and forging an empire was in German interests. Both parties generally ignored or weren't aware of the true extent of Nazi crimes. However, they were involved in their fair share of war crimes. Mass execution of prisoners, slave labor, organized sexual slavery, and scorched earth tactics were widespread in the Wehrmacht and, while related to his orders, would have still happened with or without Hitler. Again, this isn't to say that the Wehrmacht was on the level of the Nazis, though its high command did some horrible things. The point is that many poliies that turned people in the Soviet Union would have happened even under a military run government. Anyways, the point is that even with Hitler dead there is still a very large and powerful Nazi Party apparatus which supports his policies, and a Wehrmacht which is unwilling to object to said policies so long as Germany is winning the war. Thus improved treatment of civilians is highly unlikely, since if anything with Hitler dead men like Himmler and Heydrich will gain more power and influence in the Nazi Party than they did IOTL.

In a sentence, the attitudes of the Wehrmacht were such that in 1940 it's infeasible that it will attempt a coup against the Nazi Party, be against invading the Soviet Union, or attempt to improve conditions for occupied civilians; this is best of of its OTL actions which demonstrate a callousness in its high command in regards to the laws of war of the time.
 
Oh, no, I wasn't saying the Wehrmacht was staffed by mass murderers. My meaning was that the Nazi's policy was to exterminate the Slavs, destroy Communism, and acquire living space in the east to forge a major empire to rival Britain and the US. The generals supported this policy either because they were committed Nazis or far right supporters who wanted to see a strong Germany and destroy Communism, or weren't ideologically aligned with the Nazis per say (But still very right wing) and were militarists who thought that defeating the Soviet Union and forging an empire was in German interests. Both parties generally ignored or weren't aware of the true extent of Nazi crimes. However, they were involved in their fair share of war crimes. Mass execution of prisoners, slave labor, organized sexual slavery, and scorched earth tactics were widespread in the Wehrmacht and, while related to his orders, would have still happened with or without Hitler. Again, this isn't to say that the Wehrmacht was on the level of the Nazis, though its high command did some horrible things. The point is that many poliies that turned people in the Soviet Union would have happened even under a military run government. Anyways, the point is that even with Hitler dead there is still a very large and powerful Nazi Party apparatus which supports his policies, and a Wehrmacht which is unwilling to object to said policies so long as Germany is winning the war. Thus improved treatment of civilians is highly unlikely, since if anything with Hitler dead men like Himmler and Heydrich will gain more power and influence in the Nazi Party than they did IOTL.

In a sentence, the attitudes of the Wehrmacht were such that in 1940 it's infeasible that it will attempt a coup against the Nazi Party, be against invading the Soviet Union, or attempt to improve conditions for occupied civilians; this is best of of its OTL actions which demonstrate a callousness in its high command in regards to the laws of war of the time.

Sorry, but the notion that you think its infeasible that the Army would try to pull off a coup if the chicken farmer or one of his SS lackies came to power after Hitler died in this POD is far from reality. They wouldn't do it to improve conditions in any battle front, but if you think the leadership of the Heer would have supported the SS taking over the government without violent opposition you don't seem to understand how much Hitler managed to keep at bay conflict between the Heer and the SS. With Hitler gone that conflict is going to come to a head quickly, certainly before the invasion of the Soviet Union.

If the SS lose you aren't going to see SS Einsatzgruppen units running around in the Soviet Union killing millions of people and SS run Death Camps get built to further in the task. The war in the Soviet Union is certain to be brutal, but its far from certain that its going to end up being a war to genocide the Slavs as you believe. If the SS win it means the Heer loses many many of its best officers and Field Marshal's and the war in the Soviet Union goes much worse then OTL.
 
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Sorry, but the notion that you think its infeasible that the Army would try to pull off a coup if the chicken farmer or one of his SS lackies came to power after Hitler died in this POD is far from reality. They wouldn't do it to improve conditions in any battle front, but if you think the leadership of the Heer would have supported the SS taking over the government without violent opposition you don't seem to understand how much Hitler managed to keep at bay conflict between the Heer and the SS. With Hitler gone that conflict is going to come to a head quickly, certainly before the invasion of the Soviet Union.

If the SS lose you aren't going to see SS Einsatzgruppen units running around in the Soviet Union killing millions of people and SS run Death Camps get built to further in the task. The war in the Soviet Union is certain to be brutal, but its far from certain that its going to end up being a war to genocide the Slavs as you believe. If the SS win the Army loses many many of its best officers and Field Marshal's and the war in the Soviet Union goes much worse then OTL.

I don't see how infeasible it is. Many members of the military were strong supporters of the Nazi Party. Hell, in mid 1940 the Nazi Party reached its zenith in popularity among those in the military. Obviously with hindsight it seems obvious that the military should carry out a coup, which would succeed and would be in its best interests, but at the time such an act would be inconceivable except for a minority of officers who had opposed the Nazi Party from the beginning. Even in 1943 and 1944 most officers refused to directly act against Hitler due to a combination of loyalty and professionalism. In May 1940 you have the Wehrmacht in the middle of a massive, victorious operation, and the German state apparently on the verge of dominating Europe. Any officer that suggests, much less attempts, a coup will be denounced as a traitor by his peers almost immediately. At this point Party interference in military matters was minimal compared to what would happen in later years; certainly not enough to provoke an immediate grab for power. Certainly the Wehrmacht will make sure that the military was greater influence over policy making and is just as important as the Party, but its not going to eliminate the Party which at the moment is wildly popular and led by a man (Goering) who is compliant with what the military wants.

On another note, a military coup isn't going to go that smoothly. Even if a group of generals tries to seize power, they'll almost certainly be opposed not just by the Nazi Party but also various generals loyal to both the Party or simply fighting out of loyalty to the government. Without an Eastern Front this is going to involve large numbers of troops on both sides, since any coup will only take place after the war in France ends. Thus Germany will quite possibly suffer serious unrest or civil war if a coup takes place. Even if the plotters succeed they'll likely quickly break apart into fighting factions, which were very common in the military and government at the time.
 
I don't see how infeasible it is. Many members of the military were strong supporters of the Nazi Party. Hell, in mid 1940 the Nazi Party reached its zenith in popularity among those in the military. Obviously with hindsight it seems obvious that the military should carry out a coup, which would succeed and would be in its best interests, but at the time such an act would be inconceivable except for a minority of officers who had opposed the Nazi Party from the beginning. Even in 1943 and 1944 most officers refused to directly act against Hitler due to a combination of loyalty and professionalism. In May 1940 you have the Wehrmacht in the middle of a massive, victorious operation, and the German state apparently on the verge of dominating Europe. Any officer that suggests, much less attempts, a coup will be denounced as a traitor by his peers almost immediately. At this point Party interference in military matters was minimal compared to what would happen in later years; certainly not enough to provoke an immediate grab for power. Certainly the Wehrmacht will make sure that the military was greater influence over policy making and is just as important as the Party, but its not going to eliminate the Party which at the moment is wildly popular and led by a man (Goering) who is compliant with what the military wants.

On another note, a military coup isn't going to go that smoothly. Even if a group of generals tries to seize power, they'll almost certainly be opposed not just by the Nazi Party but also various generals loyal to both the Party or simply fighting out of loyalty to the government. Without an Eastern Front this is going to involve large numbers of troops on both sides, since any coup will only take place after the war in France ends. Thus Germany will quite possibly suffer serious unrest or civil war if a coup takes place. Even if the plotters succeed they'll likely quickly break apart into fighting factions, which were very common in the military and government at the time.

You first tell me it's totally infesable that a coup happens then you go on to tell me if it did it wouldn't go smoothly and could cause civil war.

If fat man manages to lay off the drugs and shows the Heer he is a strong leader then you will have a Hitler lite Germany and he will likely allow the SS to mass murder, but not on the level Hitler did. If fat man lapses into deep drug use and spends most of his days passed out on drugs and Himmler effectively runs the government the military will move against them. I agree with you on one thing an effective coup is not insured and could lead to chaos for some time in Berlin.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
So, on the 17th of May, Hitler collapses of a heart attack. Attempts are made to revive him, but he dies shortly after collapsing.


WHAT HAPPENS NOW??????

Hitler goes down as one of the greatest military minds in history, and is talked about in the same conversation as Alexander the Great, Napoleon, etc. His critics point to his earlier anti-semitic views, but the general view is that they are exaggerated by his critics and history professors writing papers. If Germany still loses the war, A-H boards will generally agree that Germany will have won the war if Hitler lived.

Everyone knows the cost of losing due to WW1. The German army will simply shoot anyone who openly revolts while the war is going on. Goering will be leader, and Himmler will be too smart to try anything until after France falls. The war plan will follow much like OTL, either a bit slower or faster. The replacement General will likely do better than Hitler, but even good generals make mistakes, so he could do something really dumb. The general plan is working well, and there is no good reason to change the plan.

Churchill has lost his evil villain, and this will make it a little harder to keep fighting. The terms imposed on France will be harsh, but will likely vary from our terms, perhaps considerably. After all, if say Goering wants the immediate formal annexation of A-L, France will sign it. By July/August, the knives will come out in the German leadership. If Himmler or any other leaders that want to make a coup attempt will move. If they wait too long, then they lose their chance. As to who comes out in control, I have seen argument for Himmler, Hess, Goering, and the Army. Each has its merits, but i would guess Goering will remain leader and Himmler will not do an open coup.

In any case, the Battle of Britain will still happen, with the same "brilliant" Goering type plan. It will fail, but it may go on longer, especially if Goering has lots of real power.

Invading Russia will be delayed/cancelled because:

1) Few leaders are as aggressive as Hitler.
2) The power struggle of the Summer of 1940 will delay and disorganize things.
3) Hitler will be gone, so it will be easier for Britain to make peace and be able to save face.

By summer 1941, there will be enough butterflies to make any predictions very hard. At a minimum, a different Nazi will make different strategic and tactical decision compared to Hitler.
 
Hitler goes down as one of the greatest military minds in history, and is talked about in the same conversation as Alexander the Great, Napoleon, etc. His critics point to his earlier anti-semitic views, but the general view is that they are exaggerated by his critics and history professors writing papers. If Germany still loses the war, A-H boards will generally agree that Germany will have won the war if Hitler lived.

Everyone knows the cost of losing due to WW1. The German army will simply shoot anyone who openly revolts while the war is going on. Goering will be leader, and Himmler will be too smart to try anything until after France falls. The war plan will follow much like OTL, either a bit slower or faster. The replacement General will likely do better than Hitler, but even good generals make mistakes, so he could do something really dumb. The general plan is working well, and there is no good reason to change the plan.

Churchill has lost his evil villain, and this will make it a little harder to keep fighting. The terms imposed on France will be harsh, but will likely vary from our terms, perhaps considerably. After all, if say Goering wants the immediate formal annexation of A-L, France will sign it. By July/August, the knives will come out in the German leadership. If Himmler or any other leaders that want to make a coup attempt will move. If they wait too long, then they lose their chance. As to who comes out in control, I have seen argument for Himmler, Hess, Goering, and the Army. Each has its merits, but i would guess Goering will remain leader and Himmler will not do an open coup.

In any case, the Battle of Britain will still happen, with the same "brilliant" Goering type plan. It will fail, but it may go on longer, especially if Goering has lots of real power.

Invading Russia will be delayed/cancelled because:

1) Few leaders are as aggressive as Hitler.
2) The power struggle of the Summer of 1940 will delay and disorganize things.
3) Hitler will be gone, so it will be easier for Britain to make peace and be able to save face.

By summer 1941, there will be enough butterflies to make any predictions very hard. At a minimum, a different Nazi will make different strategic and tactical decision compared to Hitler.

A coup will certainly not happen during fighting in France or during the Battle of Britain shortly thereafter (likely sooner then the origional time line), but both the army and the SS will be looking for signs of weakness and to both of them and the world they will regard it as Hitler whose actions won the battle for France and Goering the so called Air Force expert who lost the Battle for Britian.

Goering is going to appear weak and incompetent after the Battle for Britian and if he comes off as a lazy drug addict too the knifes I believe come out for him.
 
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