Historiographic Thread: Name changes and avoiding other anachronisms

Thande

Donor
The purpose of this thread is so people can share their knowledge of older names and other terminology, to help avoid anachronisms when writing about a particular period. I'll start with some major ones:

Political right and left: These terms were invented during the French Revolution--in the national assembly at the time, the more conservative representatives sat on the King's right and the more radical ones on his left. If writing about a period before the French Revolution, you therefore cannot use terms like left and right.

The Byzantine Empire: The name 'Byzantine' was not coined until 1557, more than a century after the empire died, so obviously no-one at the time called it that. The people of the Empire themselves considered themselves Romans and used that name. Everyone else referred to it as "the Eastern Empire" or "the Greek Empire"--in opposition to "The Latin Empire", which had been the Western Roman Empire.

Britain: The term "United Kingdom" did not come about until 1801, when the Kingdom of Great Britain was added to the Kingdom of Ireland to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Using the phrase "UK" as a term to describe the country was rare until the mid-twentieth century. Prior to that most people said either "Britain", or often "England" was (incorrectly, and usually by the establishment) considered synonymous with Britain or the UK. England and Scotland were united into Great Britain in 1707 by the Act of Union, and no longer exist as legal entities after that date: there is no 'Queen of England' or 'King of England'. However the Union Jack dates from 1603 or so, when James VI of Scotland became King James I of England in personal union. James wanted to combine the kingdoms politically (including merging the parliaments) but there was opposition at the time and it would only be done 100 years later. However his political efforts did mean that names like Monarch of All Great Britain were bandied about at the time, and for about 200 years the government sometimes insisted on using the politically correct terms "North Britain and South Britain" instead of Scotland and England--of course none of the ordinary people paid any attention.

Hung parliaments: This is now a common term in British politics but only dates from the 1970s; previously phrases like 'balanced parliament' or 'no overall majority' were used.

Democracy: In the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries the word was considered to mean "mob rule" by most civilised society, and only radicals (like Andrew Jackson or the Chartists) would openly call themselves Democrats. It would not be used by any sort of establishment political party outside the United States.
 
Everyone else referred to it as "the Eastern Empire" or "the Greek Empire"--in opposition to "The Latin Empire", which had been the Western Roman Empire.

Not to be confused with the short-lived "latin empire of constantinople".
 

Glen

Moderator
A good idea, but shouldn't this be more with the resources in AH Media and Books?
 
Naturally people get Maya names wrong a lot. Most names for Mayan ruins are obviously not their true names, and thus are anachronistic but people still use them. When the 19th Century explorers rediscovered the cities of the southern lowlands they could not read the glyphs so they just gave them names in Spanish and sometimes used the names the locals used to refer to them. Tikal, for example (being the most often referred to city), actually means "at the water hole", but the ancient name was actually Mutul, which sounds way cooler. I can list a lot of others if anyone wants, but I doubt anyone really cares that much.
 
Naturally people get Maya names wrong a lot. Most names for Mayan ruins are obviously not their true names, and thus are anachronistic but people still use them. When the 19th Century explorers rediscovered the cities of the southern lowlands they could not read the glyphs so they just gave them names in Spanish and sometimes used the names the locals used to refer to them. Tikal, for example (being the most often referred to city), actually means "at the water hole", but the ancient name was actually Mutul, which sounds way cooler. I can list a lot of others if anyone wants, but I doubt anyone really cares that much.

When I get around to covering how (to use the OTL term) Mesoamerica is handled in my timeline, I know who to ask, then. :D

If you list them now I'll just forget between now and then.
 
Naturally people get Maya names wrong a lot. Most names for Mayan ruins are obviously not their true names, and thus are anachronistic but people still use them. When the 19th Century explorers rediscovered the cities of the southern lowlands they could not read the glyphs so they just gave them names in Spanish and sometimes used the names the locals used to refer to them. Tikal, for example (being the most often referred to city), actually means "at the water hole", but the ancient name was actually Mutul, which sounds way cooler. I can list a lot of others if anyone wants, but I doubt anyone really cares that much.

I beg to differ, I'm actually really interested in the actual Maya place names...if you can list the ones you know I'd certainly appreciate it.
 
I beg to differ, I'm actually really interested in the actual Maya place names...if you can list the ones you know I'd certainly appreciate it.
Hmm, it'll be a long list. Also would have to mention that they weren't strictly organized into city-states really, they defined themselves more by kingdom, they were more feudal than the Greeks. So I might as well mention the names of kingdoms as well.

Tikal = Mutul, they also called themselves "Yax Mutul", or First Mutul, to distinguish themselves from
Dos Pilas= Mutul as well. They were a splinter faction, founded by a brother of a Mutul king. They were really douchey, it seems.
Naranjo = Maxam or Wak Kab'nal. Maybe both. Was the capital of Saal/Sa'il.
Copan = Oxwitik, capital of Xuxpi.
Calakmul = Chiiknahb, capital of Kaan. The region it was in may have been called Ox Te' Tuun.
Piedras Negras = Yok'ib', also heard it called K'in Nal.
Yaxchilan = Pa'Chan
Palenque = Lakamha, capital of B'aakal.
Oxwitzha = Caracol, capital of K'antumaak.
Popo' = Tonina.
Talol = Ek Balam.


I actually know several more as well, these are just the most significant ones. Others in the north I didn't list but are significant still go by their ancient names, like Uxmal or Chichen Itza, although it had a different name in the Classic Era. There are also several ancient towns and cities whose ruins have not been identified.
 
In the same vein, there's the issue of using Greek/Arabic names for Ancient Egyptian cities prior to the Hellenistic era. Here's a partial list; I can add more if anyone's interested.

Memphis = Ineb-Hedj/Men-Nefer [1]
Thebes = Nyut-Resut/Waset
Heliopolis = Iunu
Luxor = (See Thebes)
Saïs = Za'
Heirakonpolis = Nekhen
This = Tjeni
Abydos = Abdju
Herakleopolis = Neni-Nesu/Henen-Nesu
Elephantine/Syene = Swenut
Buto = Per-Wadjet
Bubastis = Per-Bastet
Asyut/Lykopolis = Sauty
Alexandria = Raqut [2]
Crocodilopolis = Shedet
Dendera = Iunet
Ombos/Naqada = Nubt
Kom-Ombo = Nubt-Resut
Tanis = Djanet
Hermopolis = Khmun
Koptos = Kebet
Edfu = Westjet-Haru
Avaris = Hutweret [3]
Pi-Ramesses = Per-Ramessesa A'a-Nakhtu [3]

[1] Also refers to the Giza area.
[2] Name of the site occupying the area prior to the establishment of Alexandria.
[3] Cities occupy the same location.
 
Sweet, where'd you get those names? I have a fascination with ancient Egypt that manifests itself every now and then. The only Greek name that actually sounds cool is Memphis, the rest of them are much better than the later names. Crocodilopolis in particular just sounds funny. :p
 
Thank you for that list 9 Fanged Hummingbird. :)

I hope you don't mind, do you have any good links regarding Maya language and pronunciation of Maya words/names...I'm just a stickler when it comes to pronouncing things as correctly as I can. :eek:
 
I was able to post these from memory, thanks to years and years of slowly amassing knowledge on the subject :p
However, history books are getting better and often include the original names in brackets, and in some cases use them to replace the later names completely (Booyeah!); they're even popping up on Wikipedia now, so they should be relatively easy to find if one cares to look.
It's actually the study of Ancient Egypt (as something along the lines of a childhood obsession) that got me interested in history in general, so I have a bunch of info about it burned forever into my brain. I actually have an Egyptian TL in the works, but I'm only going to start posting once I have a few updates written so I can release them in rapid succession.
 
I think it should be important to note how terms like 'liberal,' 'conservative,' 'progressive,' and etc. will have (very) different meanings depending on the time period and the culture. e.g. a British liberal of the mid-19th century will hold radically different views than a German one of the same period; let alone comparing said British liberal to a contemporary from the early or late 19th century. Or even further trying to contrast 19th and 20th century liberalism even within the same country.
 
Thank you for that list 9 Fanged Hummingbird. :)

I hope you don't mind, do you have any good links regarding Maya language and pronunciation of Maya words/names...I'm just a stickler when it comes to pronouncing things as correctly as I can. :eek:
Here is a pdf containing the most complete Classic Ch'oltian dictionary I've been able to find. Doesn't use all the words I've seen though for some reason, there are books even I own containing translations omitted by that dictionary. And it uses an orthography unfamiliar to me, looks like it's supposed to be easier for people more unfamiliar with the language. Most sources use a different orthography. Usually the sounds are the same as in Spanish, with a few exceptions. 'X' always makes a 'sh' sound, double vowels mean the vowel sounded is simply extended, 'j' is a hard h like in Spanish, 'u' makes an 'oo' sound, and 'i' makes an 'ee' sound. And apostrophes stand for glottal stops. I think that covers the pronunciation.

A really good website for Maya studies is FAMSI, they are the absolute authority on the web. They have glyph guides, language guides, name guides, and a huge collection of vase photos and more. Really nice.
 
Oh, my biggest peeve, the Aztec Empire.

Mexico is the real native name of the country (and thus "Mexicans" would be a likely name for their inhabitants even without a Spanish conquest). The state's name was The Triple Alliance (not in the actual wording but the meaning) and the dominant ethnic group were the Nahua.

The word "Aztec" was coined by von Humboldt in the early 19th century to make the distinction clear between pre and post-conquest Mexicans.
 

Thande

Donor
Some notes on political colours

United States: Traditionally US political parties have avoided using identifying colours, both preferring to wrap themselves in the flag and using red, white and blue for everything. The current 'red state blue state' thing dates only from the 2000 election. Prior to that, TV and print media randomly selected two colours from red, blue, yellow and white to represent the Republicans and Democrats for that year. Often they cycled between colours to avoid, for example, complaints of tarring the Democrats with 'commie' red. In 2000 all the US networks agreed to consistently make the Democrats blue and the Republicans red for that year, intending to switch for the next election. However, because of the disputed result and dragging-out of the 2000 election, people got used to this colour scheme from staring at maps and figures for ages. Therefore it seems this colour scheme has got somewhat fixed--but bear in mind it is barely a decade old, and election results from the past will always use an arbitrary colour scheme.

Britain: Political colours in Britain date back a long way but were not used by the parties themselves in campaigning--they were only used as identifiers in records of election results. The Whigs used orange, the Tories used blue, and the Radicals used pink. Sea green was also sometimes associated with the Radicals due to it being the colour of the democratic Levellers during the English Civil War. Orange and blue were inherited by the successors of the Whigs and Tories, the Liberals and Conservatives respectively. The Conservatives still use blue today, while the Liberals (now Liberal Democrats) use varying shades of orange or yellow depending on the context. The Labour Party uses red, for which see below. Also, while the Scottish National Party nowadays uses a pale yellow, in the 1980s they were represented by pink on election maps. Plaid Cymru however has always been green.

Red as the colour of left-wing movements: This appears to ultimately stem from the use of red flags being used in the French Revolution and the Revolutions of 1848, but was popularised by their use by the Paris Commune in 1871. The symbolism, fairly obviously, is for the blood of the common people shed due to the injustices of the system/in the fight for liberty. The red in the French flag however is not related to this symbolism: the French flag was made by taking the red and blue flag of Paris and then adding a white stripe in between to symbolise the King, white being the colour of monarchy in France. Remember that the French tricolour flag was chosen before the Revolution turned against the King.
 
The Byzantine Empire: The name 'Byzantine' was not coined until 1557, more than a century after the empire died, so obviously no-one at the time called it that. The people of the Empire themselves considered themselves Romans and used that name. Everyone else referred to it as "the Eastern Empire" or "the Greek Empire"--in opposition to "The Latin Empire", which had been the Western Roman Empire.

It's actually slightly more complicated than that. Let me geek you out...

The name "Byzantine" was actually used quite frequently by Byzantine contemporary historians- but not in reference to the whole Empire. Generally, the "posher" Byzantine historians like Michael Psellos liked to show off their learning through use of archaic terms- thus, they called the capital Byzantion, not Konstantinoupoli, in their writing. Konstantinoupoli was generally only used by the more "downmarket" chroniclers like Theophanes, who wrote in medieval, rather than Attic, Greek.

So, yes, some of the inhabitants of the ERE did indeed call themselves "Byzantines". Not many, though, and they were always aware that "Byzantines" were always subjects of the Roman Emperor, and inhabited the capital of the Roman Empire, Constantinople-Byzantium. Which was generally referred to simply as "The City" in conversation.

As for everyone else calling it the Greek Empire, that's not quite right- Islamic states always referred to the Empire as ar-Rūm, hence the use of the Ottoman term Rumelia to describe the Orthodox lands of the Balkans. "Greek" was generally a term used by Westerners when deliberately trying to cause offence, and it tended to work very easily. The Byzantines were extremely prickly and grumpy about this.

Though, Byzantine intellectuals would occasionally refer to themselves as being "Hellenes", from about the tenth century onward, and increasingly once the Empire was destroyed in 1204. This didn't mean "Greek", so much as "intellectual"- they were Romans right to the end, and through much of the Ottoman rule.

Hope this wasn't too boring!
 
Hung parliaments: This is now a common term in British politics but only dates from the 1970s; previously phrases like 'balanced parliament' or 'no overall majority' were used.
This one I could see developing anyway, since from what I understand, it's an extension on the phrase "hung jury".
 
Ooh! More Egyptian stuff!

The term "pharaoh" (derived from "Per-A'a", meaning "Great House/Palace") did not come into use until roughly the mid-18th dynasty (c. 1550 BCE to 1292 BCE). Prior to that, the most common term for the Egyptian sovereign was "nesu", which simply means "king".
 

Thande

Donor
Dutch: This term was often used generically of all Germans (as a corruption of "Deutsch") well into the 19th century, especially in the USA (the Pennsylvania Dutch are actually Pennsylvania Germans). Ironically the people of the Netherlands were sometimes actually excluded from the 'Dutch' category and instead called 'Hollanders'. This stemming from the fallacy, still seen today, that "Holland" = "The Netherlands", when it is actually only part of the country (compare England / Britain).
 
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