Historical Heroes

Mongols wouldn't assimilated even if they ruled 200 years. :cool:

Honestly it depends on what you call assimilating. In the very least they would have changed significantly just from the Kaldun principle (that once a nomadic dynasty conquers a vast sedentary nation, keeping up that nomadic lifestyle is next to impossible over the next generations) which in general means they would appear far, far more Chinese than your average Mongolian on the steppe, even if like the Manchus they speak their native tongue at court and segregate their own populations out.
 
So George Washington and all those founders are out because they owned slaves but all the medeival kings get to be included as heroes despite the system of serfdom they ruled over? GW is out but mass-murderer Genghis Khan is in?

George Washington is a hero damnit. He faught a hard war against a powerful enemy and at the end of it refused to take a crown himself, and managed to run that nation well (better than his immediate few successors) and he did it all with just enough reluctance to make you realize he was no glory hound. Slavery is bad; so is moral equivalency when it comes to the past. The FF lived in a time and place where slavery was acceptable; I only hope that 300 years from now our descendants will not be judging us so harshly.

I nominate George Washington; not for what he did, but for the way he did it, with humility and good sense.
 
Benjamin XVIII said:
So George Washington and all those founders are out because they owned slaves but all the medeival kings get to be included as heroes despite the system of serfdom they ruled over? GW is out but mass-murderer Genghis Khan is in?

George Washington is a hero damnit. He faught a hard war against a powerful enemy and at the end of it refused to take a crown himself, and managed to run that nation well (better than his immediate few successors) and he did it all with just enough reluctance to make you realize he was no glory hound. Slavery is bad; so is moral equivalency when it comes to the past. The FF lived in a time and place where slavery was acceptable; I only hope that 300 years from now our descendants will not be judging us so harshly.

I nominate George Washington; not for what he did, but for the way he did it, with humility and good sense.
A very good point: a hero doesn't have to be a perfect character without flaws. I think people should acknowledge that.

Take Napoleon for example, who I consider a Historial Hero. The man is pretty much the archetype of a Hero when it comes to his career (Lieutenant = > General => First Consul => Emperor), abilities (Genius strategist), ideals (that of the French Revolution) and in some way destiny (managed to become more or less Master of Europe before crashing down). That's awesome. Doesn't mean the man didn't have problems: he brought back slavery (though he said it was a mistake at the end of his life), most of his life is engulfed in war and he was a rather Authoritarian ruler. But despite these flaws (which can be major ones), I would still consider him a Historical Hero, especially considering his legacy.
 
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