Hispano-Confederate War

[NothingNow]

I do not want to imagine how much the navy is going to cost. The Confederacy even in the best possible scenario is going to have to build it from scratch (or what survived the war), including a lot of naval infrastructure.

I'd say a 25-40 million might be a good ballpark figure for a basic fleet (without counting personell,) including some harbor fortifications. Since places like Charleston, Corpus Christi, Jacksonville, Savanna, Pensacola (or Mobile) and Cedar Key would need new facilities built to support the fleet, as the CSA would likely only have New Orleans and Norfolk Naval Yard/Gosport Shipyard, and the latter of the two might be in pretty bad shape.
That project by itself would easily be a multi-million dollar ongoing headache (, while a simple Fourth or Fifth-rate Frigate, without any armor would be something like £250k after being fully fitted out, and a modern ironclad was something like £260k (HMS Resistance) up to about £350-370k (HMS Bellerophon) being the norm for an Ironclad of the period. So, half a million to a million CS dollars per ship, assuming run-away inflation hadn't completely fucked the value of the CS Dollar (ASB, I know.)

 

[Snake Featherston]

Thanks. I always find economic history less interesting than military history except when actually reading it (so I rarely hunt down books on the subject, in other words).

I do not want to imagine how much the navy is going to cost. The Confederacy even in the best possible scenario is going to have to build it from scratch (or what survived the war), including a lot of naval infrastructure.

The one advantage the CSA will have is that in all scenarios where it actually survives it will have Norfolk as its major base and probable central focus of whatever CS Navy actually exists, while in Mallory it has one of the best representatives of the CS government as a founder.

How much it uses these advantages......

 

[Elfwine]

The one advantage the CSA will have is that in all scenarios where it actually survives it will have Norfolk as its major base and probable central focus of whatever CS Navy actually exists, while in Mallory it has one of the best representatives of the CS government as a founder.

How much it uses these advantages......

Yeah. If the CSA had a decent industrial/commercial base, Mallory being the only actual example of the kind of men it needed would add him to the list of men who somehow made things work.

OTL, he's impressed for keeping things going as well as he did, and a win isn't going to make that better.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Yeah. If the CSA had a decent industrial/commercial base, Mallory being the only actual example of the kind of men it needed would add him to the list of men who somehow made things work.

OTL, he's impressed for keeping things going as well as he did, and a win isn't going to make that better.

He wasn't the *only* example. Gorgas was another, and Samuel Cooper did the CSA the service of preserving any internal historical sources of its government at all. Otherwise a Lost Cause would be pure mythology but it would not be history.

 

[Elfwine]

He wasn't the *only* example. Gorgas was another, and Samuel Cooper did the CSA the service of preserving any internal historical sources of its government at all. Otherwise a Lost Cause would be pure mythology but it would not be history.

Okay, the only example in the Confederate cabinet.

But yeah, Gorgas was another miracle worker.

Cooper did little during the war, so I'm not counting him, but that does has to be listed to his credit.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Okay, the only example in the Confederate cabinet.

But yeah, Gorgas was another miracle worker.

Cooper did little during the war, so I'm not counting him, but that does has to be listed to his credit.

He was the adjutant general and the highest-ranking CS officer in the war. That the CSA was able to conduct and raise armies as disciplined as it had owes something to his influence.....and leaves the historical irony that the highest-ranking CS officer (though he was staff, not field), was a Yankee.

 

[Elfwine]

He was the adjutant general and the highest-ranking CS officer in the war. That the CSA was able to conduct and raise armies as disciplined as it had owes something to his influence.....and leaves the historical irony that the highest-ranking CS officer (though he was staff, not field), was a Yankee.

Did he really have that much influence on it, though?

Agreed on the irony. That's something just plain weird, even considering the parts that were literally brother vs. brother.

 

[Wolfpaw]

I've always wondered: what would the shipbuilding capacity of New Orleans be? I mean, the CSA is far more likely to be a Gulf/Caribbean power rather than an Atlantic one, no?

 

[Snake Featherston]

Did he really have that much influence on it, though?

Agreed on the irony. That's something just plain weird, even considering the parts that were literally brother vs. brother.

More than he's given credit for. He gets neglected because staff officers in the US Civil War in general were neglected. He was most instrumental in the formation of the CS Army phase, and he was one IIRC of Davis's usual instruments to convey his orders.

I've always wondered: what would the shipbuilding capacity of New Orleans be? I mean, the CSA is far more likely to be a Gulf/Caribbean power rather than an Atlantic one, no?

New Orleans would more likely be a center of the CS Merchant Marine than a naval base.

 

[Elfwine]

More than he's given credit for. He gets neglected because staff officers in the US Civil War in general were neglected. He was most instrumental in the formation of the CS Army phase, and he was one IIRC of Davis's usual instruments to convey his orders.

That's the reason I'm not sure. How much was him, and how much was he just conveying whatever the plans were?

 

[Snake Featherston]

That's the reason I'm not sure. How much was him, and how much was he just conveying whatever the plans were?

That's always an issue, and it's one I'm not sure of *because* Cooper is so obscure. He was also, incidentally, the highest-ranking US officer to defect to the Confederate side.

 

[67th Tigers]

I'd say a 25-40 million might be a good ballpark figure for a basic fleet (without counting personell,) including some harbor fortifications. Since places like Charleston, Corpus Christi, Jacksonville, Savanna, Pensacola (or Mobile) and Cedar Key would need new facilities built to support the fleet, as the CSA would likely only have New Orleans and Norfolk Naval Yard/Gosport Shipyard, and the latter of the two might be in pretty bad shape.
That project by itself would easily be a multi-million dollar ongoing headache (, while a simple Fourth or Fifth-rate Frigate, without any armor would be something like £250k after being fully fitted out, and a modern ironclad was something like £260k (HMS Resistance) up to about £350-370k (HMS Bellerophon) being the norm for an Ironclad of the period. So, half a million to a million CS dollars per ship, assuming run-away inflation hadn't completely fucked the value of the CS Dollar (ASB, I know.)

There is no "runaway inflation" until ca. August 1863, and that was because of a loss of confidence. In any typical CSA victorious scenario it is a non-factor. Of course the CSA did build a new yard at Mobile (but lets ignore that).

Note that the RN ships are expensive, because they use much higher quality materials than the norm. CSS Stonewall cost £190,000 all up.

You also heavily overestimate the cost of a frigate. The two Duncan class 90's built in the late 1850's cost £131,000 each all up. They were relatively expensive for battleships.

The big 51's like Shannon, Liffey and Immortalite cost ~ £90,000 each. Corvettes cost half that. A gunboat cost ~ £8,000.

 

[Elfwine]

That's always an issue, and it's one I'm not sure of *because* Cooper is so obscure. He was also, incidentally, the highest-ranking US officer to defect to the Confederate side.

Too bad, because we know his Union counterparts moved mountains. Cooper seems to have been easy to ignore, which is not a good sign.

On the other hand, Thomas was easy to ignore, and we know how much he did.

On the subject of inflation: http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/ConfederateInflation.asp

And even if the war is won, that doesn't magically translate into the Confederate dollar being worth anything. The Confederacy will still be trying to find money somehow, still have very little income, and still have printing presses.

 

[NothingNow]

I've always wondered: what would the shipbuilding capacity of New Orleans be? I mean, the CSA is far more likely to be a Gulf/Caribbean power rather than an Atlantic one, no?

Off the top of my head, Not much that'd be suitable for warship construction, especially with a lack of domestic steel production until someone starts steel production in OTL's Birmingham. That, and Louisiana shipbuilding was traditionally all about Riverine vessels and on occasion, they'd build a fairly shallow-draft maritime vessel, but nothing really big. New Orleans itself didn't become a deepwater port until after the ACW ended.

The largest Maritime vessel built in Lousiana before the ACW was the Baltic, a screw steamer, built in 1859, which was 192-feet long and had a 29-foot beam.

During the war, they did do pretty well in building some decent vessels, like CSS Louisiana and CSS Mississippi, as the Ten New Orleans/Algiers shipyards did have experience building some tough ships, and they did some other impressive work, building, fitting out or re-fitting some seven privateers and 35 Naval vessels during the war.

The shipyards in and around Lake Charles did have a pretty good reputation for building schooners (which for a Louisiana yard were typically two-masted and about 50-60 feet long,) which saw a lot of use hauling Live Oak from various parts of the state to the rest of the World.

Actually between Louisiana and Florida, the CSA's sitting on a lot of really good ship-building lumber,

New Orleans would more likely be a center of the CS Merchant Marine than a naval base.

Eh, I could see it being both.

Although for anything really big with a deep draught, the only good harbors in CS hands on the Gulf is Tampa Bay, and only because it's a good two or three feet deeper in navigable areas than pretty much any other harbor on the Gulf at that time, even if you could walk across most of it quite comfortably on a calm day if you had a snorkel and about 12 hours to kill.

 

[Fiver]

That project by itself would easily be a multi-million dollar ongoing headache (, while a simple Fourth or Fifth-rate Frigate, without any armor would be something like £250k after being fully fitted out, and a modern ironclad was something like £260k (HMS Resistance) up to about £350-370k (HMS Bellerophon) being the norm for an Ironclad of the period. So, half a million to a million CS dollars per ship, assuming run-away inflation hadn't completely fucked the value of the CS Dollar (ASB, I know.)

In 1860, it took $4.85 in Union currency to equal £1. So that unarmored Fourth or Fifth-rate Frigate would cost $1.2 million, HMS Resistance would cost $1.25 million, HMS Bellerophon would cost $1.75 million.

Again, that's Union currency. In Confederate currency they should cost a minimum of two to three times as much.

 

[Fiver]

The one advantage the CSA will have is that in all scenarios where it actually survives it will have Norfolk as its major base and probable central focus of whatever CS Navy actually exists, while in Mallory it has one of the best representatives of the CS government as a founder.

If the Union loses the Norfolk Naval Yard a second time at the bargaining table, you can be sure they won't leave the Confederacy enough material to construct a rowboat.

 

[NothingNow]

You also heavily overestimate the cost of a frigate. The two Duncan class 90's built in the late 1850's cost £131,000 each all up. They were relatively expensive for battleships.

The big 51's like Shannon, Liffey and Immortalite cost ~ £90,000 each. Corvettes cost half that. A gunboat cost ~ £8,000.

Are you counting the cost of the Guns and other equipment? Because RN accounting practices of the day often listed them separately. But looking back, £250k is a bit much for an unarmored frigate, as the iron-hulled HMS Inconstant (1868) was £213,324 without arms.

 

[NothingNow]

In 1860, it took $4.85 in Union currency to equal £1. So that unarmored Fourth or Fifth-rate Frigate would cost $1.2 million, HMS Resistance would cost $1.25 million, HMS Bellerophon would cost $1.75 million.

Again, that's Union currency. In Confederate currency they should cost a minimum of two to three times as much.

Yeah, I was assuming, as I'd stated earlier, that most of the Maritime Fleet would tend to be smaller vessels, toping out with frigates like HMS Inconstant or HMS Raleigh, but with a shallower draught and the occasional Ironclad bult to the same general size as Huáscar and CSS Stonewall, to conserve both valuable sailors and desperately needed cash.