Hispania- alternate versions

So, what I would like to accomplish is Hispania ( I fancy this name more than Spain, but never mind that ) consisting of these territories:

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So, basicly with Portugal and without of Basque territories and lands of Aragonese Crown.

I would like that the union of various kingdoms ( Castille, Leon, Portugal ) happens somewhere in 13th or 14th century. Capital should be in Lisbon. I would also like to avoid this country beoming a Greater Castille, so with larger Portuguese influence. I would also like to see some language that's a mixture of Portuguese/Galician, Leonese and Castillian ( probably with most Castillian influences ) to be formed and named Hispanish/Hispanian language...

So, how to achieve that?

Also, would such country be mostly aloof from major European entanglements ( like OTL Portugal ) or involved ( like OTL Spain )? Would they be allies with England/Britain or with France?
Would they discover the New World first or not? Would in the New World prevail their common language ( Hispanish ) or their separate languages ( Portuguese etc. )?
 
  1. More successful Delacerdas detach Leon from Castile with Portuguese backing
  2. Union of Leon and Portugal. Portuguese becomes dominant due to numbers
  3. Succession crisis in Leon-Portugal won by Castilian claimant
  4. King of Leon-Portugal inherits throne of Castile.
  5. Unified Kingdom of Spain declared (Ispanha?)
 
Also, would such country be mostly aloof from major European entanglements ( like OTL Portugal ) or involved ( like OTL Spain )? Would they be allies with England/Britain or with France?
IMO, if they are smart they will limit their European interactions: fortify the border from French aggression, perhaps take part in a Holy League to free up the Mediterranean Sea from Ottoman piracy. Foreign adventures in Italy, Morocco, and the Maghreb don't seem out of place. Colonially, they will eventually clash with other European states over positions in Africa and Asia.

Would they discover the New World first or not?
By geography they stand a good chance, but if they don't they still stand a good chance to establish colonies in their OTL places.
 
  1. More successful Delacerdas detach Leon from Castile with Portuguese backing
  2. Union of Leon and Portugal. Portuguese becomes dominant due to numbers
  3. Succession crisis in Leon-Portugal won by Castilian claimant
  4. King of Leon-Portugal inherits throne of Castile.
  5. Unified Kingdom of Spain declared (Ispanha?)


OK, interesting.

So, when could this happen?
 
IMO, if they are smart they will limit their European interactions: fortify the border from French aggression, perhaps take part in a Holy League to free up the Mediterranean Sea from Ottoman piracy. Foreign adventures in Italy, Morocco, and the Maghreb don't seem out of place. Colonially, they will eventually clash with other European states over positions in Africa and Asia.


By geography they stand a good chance, but if they don't they still stand a good chance to establish colonies in their OTL places.
IMHO, their OTL expansion seems allmost as given, by their sheer geography. It's only the question of their adventures in North Africa, they can be larger or smaller than OTL...
Also, New World, they will have a main role there, that's also allmost a given, even if not first there...
 
IMHO, their OTL expansion seems allmost as given, by their sheer geography.
I know if I was them, expansion into Corsica, Sardinia, and Sicily if for no other reason than to keep a lid on France. Assisting in the creation of a series of Italian client states might be worthwhile, but that great axiom of "mind your own business" might just keep Hispania more prosperous and less injured in the long run.

It's only the question of their adventures in North Africa, they can be larger or smaller than OTL...
Morocco is a real concern, and I can understand the fear based desire to rule it with an iron hand. Going back to Roman times though, I think trying to engender a sympathetic client state is the right way to go. Let some other European group seize Tunisia, to sever the east-west continuum, then you can reorient Morocco into the Western European sphere.

Also, New World, they will have a main role there, that's also allmost a given, even if not first there...
Hispania colonizing Brazil, the Guianas, and the Lesser Antilles seems a given. I would expect their colonization to spread fairly closely to OTL.
 
I know if I was them, expansion into Corsica, Sardinia, and Sicily if for no other reason than to keep a lid on France. Assisting in the creation of a series of Italian client states might be worthwhile, but that great axiom of "mind your own business" might just keep Hispania more prosperous and less injured in the long run.


Morocco is a real concern, and I can understand the fear based desire to rule it with an iron hand. Going back to Roman times though, I think trying to engender a sympathetic client state is the right way to go. Let some other European group seize Tunisia, to sever the east-west continuum, then you can reorient Morocco into the Western European sphere.


Hispania colonizing Brazil, the Guianas, and the Lesser Antilles seems a given. I would expect their colonization to spread fairly closely to OTL.


About Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily, you forgot that they belonged to the Kingdom/Crown of Aragon. And they are out of this Hispania. So I don't think that they will go in that direction.

Algiers and Morocco, on the other hand...

About colonisation, I think that they might go for all the Latin America ( ITTL named Hispanic America ) plus the OTL Portuguese colonies in Africa and Asia... Maybe without Phillipines...
 
Formation beats be; but driving a wedge between Castille and Aragon plus wanking Portuguese to claim the other kingdoms (Leon, Galicia) would be needed.

For outcomes; that red country will be a colonizing powerhouse. Not only are all the major ports on Atlantic controlled so are the Straits; and with lack of competition no Treaty of Tordesillas. It would still have the religious fervor because of Reconquista so can easily go for toppling Aztec and Incas; but maybe with Portuguese administration we see less ethic cleansing of the Moors and thus darker complexion of "Hispania"

I don't see the Basques fighting off invaders forever until the modern area will likely be continued backwater marches of France/Aragon for awhile

The blue nation (Aragon? Catalonia?) would be a Mediterranean power, but the problem is no Spanish gold flowing in to fund wars. I see very different outcomes whether gold means red nation joins in on Contiental wars or just is trading power and let's the cash flow and funds wars not fighting in them.

Also still Latin America; that was a concept coined by the French ;)
 
Formation beats be; but driving a wedge between Castille and Aragon plus wanking Portuguese to claim the other kingdoms (Leon, Galicia) would be needed.

For outcomes; that red country will be a colonizing powerhouse. Not only are all the major ports on Atlantic controlled so are the Straits; and with lack of competition no Treaty of Tordesillas. It would still have the religious fervor because of Reconquista so can easily go for toppling Aztec and Incas; but maybe with Portuguese administration we see less ethic cleansing of the Moors and thus darker complexion of "Hispania"

I don't see the Basques fighting off invaders forever until the modern area will likely be continued backwater marches of France/Aragon for awhile

The blue nation (Aragon? Catalonia?) would be a Mediterranean power, but the problem is no Spanish gold flowing in to fund wars. I see very different outcomes whether gold means red nation joins in on Contiental wars or just is trading power and let's the cash flow and funds wars not fighting in them.

Also still Latin America; that was a concept coined by the French ;)

Agreed.
 
About Latin America, little need for that name if only Haiti and French Guiane don't speak Hispanish in Americana South of Rio Grande.
 
Such Hispania will naturally want to keep Aragon and Navarre independent/under it's influence. Mostly independent from France or French influence. So that could be the potential for Hispanic-French conflicts. And any enemy of France is friend of England/Britain.
 
I wonder, if this Hispania goes OTL Portugal's route ( way around Africa to reach India ), where will Columbus go? France, England?

Also, will Cabot first discover the New World or?

Will this Hispania have a lot of interest for the New World ( when Cabral finally discover's South America )? Because they have that lucrative trade with India?

Will maybe England/France take larger parts of North America because of this Hispanish indifference?
 
I wonder, if this Hispania goes OTL Portugal's route ( way around Africa to reach India ), where will Columbus go? France, England?

Also, will Cabot first discover the New World or?

Will this Hispania have a lot of interest for the New World ( when Cabral finally discover's South America )? Because they have that lucrative trade with India?

Will maybe England/France take larger parts of North America because of this Hispanish indifference?

OTL Portugal made it pretty clear to both the English and the French that meddling in what the Crown considered their "territories" would end badly. This Hispania would probably go the same route on that issue.
 
OTL Portugal made it pretty clear to both the English and the French that meddling in what the Crown considered their "territories" would end badly. This Hispania would probably go the same route on that issue.


As for "their territories", you mean on New World or?

Because if say, Cabot or Columbus working for England or France discover it ( New World ) first, they would have stronger claim then the Hispania...
 
As for "their territories", you mean on New World or?

Because if say, Cabot or Columbus working for England or France discover it ( New World ) first, they would have stronger claim then the Hispania...

Guinea related to France and England, then about Cabot/Columbus John II was pretty to both Spain and England that the crown considered those lands to be under the Portuguese area of interest, a deal was made with Spain and England backed off.

The Portuguese crown was always very flexible relating to claims, you should see the answer Afonso V sent to the Pope when he wanted to send Missionaries to what he considered to be his lands, I expect this Hispania to take the same line of thought.
 
Guinea related to France and England, then about Cabot/Columbus John II was pretty to both Spain and England that the crown considered those lands to be under the Portuguese area of interest, a deal was made with Spain and England backed off.

The Portuguese crown was always very flexible relating to claims, you should see the answer Afonso V sent to the Pope when he wanted to send Missionaries to what he considered to be his lands, I expect this Hispania to take the same line of thought.

No question that the Portuguese/Hispanish ITTL will not suffer anyone's meddling into W. Africa and the rest of way to India.

But, what I want to know, what will happen one day when New World is discovered ( never mind by who, soon will everybody know for it's existence )- can we expect stronger English/French meddling in America, because Hispanish are buissy/content with route to India?
 
No question that the Portuguese/Hispanish ITTL will not suffer anyone's meddling into W. Africa and the rest of way to India.

But, what I want to know, what will happen one day when New World is discovered ( never mind by who, soon will everybody know for it's existence )- can we expect stronger English/French meddling in America, because Hispanish are buissy/content with route to India?

France is an obvious rival so if they find it first, it may end up in a war between the two, specially if Hispania thinks that the French found another route to Asia.

England will probably be threatened to stop sending ships to the region, and if they ignore the threat, who controls the region will be decided on the sea. I wouldn't be surprised if a Hispanic fleet would be sent to the area and that it would attack any ships there by claiming they were pirates.
 
France is an obvious rival so if they find it first, it may end up in a war between the two, specially if Hispania thinks that the French found another route to Asia.

England will probably be threatened to stop sending ships to the region, and if they ignore the threat, who controls the region will be decided on the sea. I wouldn't be surprised if a Hispanic fleet would be sent to the area and that it would attack any ships there by claiming they were pirates.


So, let's say that they go with OTL route, with Bartholomeo Diaz goeing to Cape of Good Hore in 1487 and Vasco da Gama arrives in India in 1497. Somewhere between these two years, other European rulers, especially those with acess to the Atlantic ( that means England and France, maybe some Flandrian/Netherlands merchants too, don't know ) will want their part of pie. They can't go around the Africa because that would offend the Hispanish, so they have to search alternative routes.

Now, here comes Columbus. In OTL, he tried for a few years to convince the Portuguese to give him ships, without sucess. Here instead of Portuguese, we have Hispanish. But there's no Spain as in OTL here. Aragon is Mediterranean power, without outlet to the Atlantic. Canary Islands are in Hispanish hands anyway, so he can't use sea currents/winds that could take him to New World.

So, where will he go? France? England? Will England and France be willing to spend the money?

On the other hand, sooner or later, one Hispanish ship will accidentally or not discover South America, like Cabral did in 1500.

England had a lot of problems in late 1480s and early 1490s, with few rebellions against Henry VII and Scottish invasion etc. So, before 1497, I don''t think that he can really find enough money/time/interest for such undertaking. Maybe after that.

On the other hand, without Castille ( at least without OTL Castille ) here, maybe Columbus never goes from Hispania and just keeps trading with Africa, like in OTL in 1480s?

As for France, Charles VIII had also problems with rebellions in 80s and in 90s he was occupied with Italian Wars. Same thing with his heir Louis XII.

So, I think that, without Columbus discovery in 1492, the Cabral will not have impetus to try to find an alternative way ( or ability to convince Henry VII ) so it might be possible that Cabral discovers the New World first, in 1500.
 
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