Hindu Europe

320 BC.After Alexander's invasion of India results in creation of
Selucid Empire in Persia and Maurya Empire in India and various
Indo-Greek kings in Central Asia & Afghanistan.These Indo-Greek kings
eventually become Indianised and followed Buddhist & Hindu religions
according to the individual king's spiritual aspirations. In this
timeline around 1A.D - 50A.D. a kingdom arose in northwest India which
combined the best of Hindu & Greek cultures.The kings mostly followed
Hindu religion and Greek lifestyle. The kingdom eventually become an
empire and stretched from Caspian sea to Gangetic plains and also came
into contact with the Roman Empire in many level. It also replaced the
Parsi religion in Persia and hinduism is wide spread in Mesapotomia &
Arabia. Slowly there came a synthesis between Roman & the new "Western
Hinduism". Between 100A.D. - 200 A.D., there were frequent religious
reformers who wanted to create a syncretic religion for a common
culture in the Middle-East. These reformers reached Rome around
250A.D. and got wide support among upper crust of Roman aristocracy.
Around 300A.D. the ruling Roman Emperor become the first full-fledged
follower of Hinduism and devoted his empire's peace time in translating
Hindu scriptures and concepts in popular Roman language.

During the Roman conquest of Celtic regions, the Celtic druids were
astonised at the similarity between their religious concepts and the
new concepts propagated by the Roman Emperor and Hinduism within
400A.D. become widespread all-over Central Europe.

Around 450Ad Attilla the Hun invades central europe and and the various
states in Europe collase into an empire around 600AD and that is called
HOLY HINDU EMPIRE and Chandrasekara I becomes the emperor in 650AD.He
rules Europe based on new laws of Manu written suitably for European
life style and climate.

Islam arrives in Middle-east as in original history and Arabs occupy
all regions in middle east and central Asia as well as north Africa
so the Hindu kings decide to wage a holy war to regain the lands
enroute to the hindu holy land that is India and that results in 300 years
war in with Muslims.
Also in this timeline the Muslims unable to move into a strong India
move south into Africa and convert whole of Africa into Islam.
Only South Africa and and South-east Africa remain free from Islam and
eventually become Hindu along with Madagaskar.
Ottomon empire also comes into existence also Russia becomes muslim in
this timeline.the spain and portugal remain Muslim.
Meanwhile Hinduism which has already spreads to British islands in
1000AD becomes monotheistic all over Europe by 1500, thanks to the
Hindu-rennaisance movement.
Also the British kings in their quest to find a sea route to India by-passing Muslim Territory reach new world .
Within 200 years the entire new world is hinduised adding peculiar
features to Hindu philosophy .


Reply
 
srinivasansharma said:
Sorry i posted this thread here instead of Scenarios & Timelines Section.

Yes, The Indo-Greek kingdoms continue here.

Don't worry- this is the right place. Scenarios and TLs is for TLs which have been discussed and rounded out.

In my "Sons of Alexander" TL, I had something a bit like this happen, though not to the same extent. Alexander managed to conquer the rest of India and after his death, the Indian subcontinent formed one of the Diadochi successor states with it's capital at Cochin. The main religion here was a form of Hinduism which revered Alexander as an incarnation of Vishnu. Another feature was that in the chaos following Alexander's death society was so overtunred that the caste system was broken.

The difference here is that instead of turning West towards the Caspian, they turned East towards SE Asia.
 
@srinivasansharma: I'm absolutely no expert for India, but isn't it true that you can't convert to Hinduism? I mean, if you could, there'd be the question which caste you get in - if you could choose, everyone probably wanted to be in an upper caste, and if every convert had to be a Dalit, nobody wanted... so how is it?
 
Max Sinister said:
@srinivasansharma: I'm absolutely no expert for India, but isn't it true that you can't convert to Hinduism? I mean, if you could, there'd be the question which caste you get in - if you could choose, everyone probably wanted to be in an upper caste, and if every convert had to be a Dalit, nobody wanted... so how is it?

Hinduism isn't monolithic. It's more like an overarching cultural philosophy which is expressed through various religious trends some of which are more dominant and many of which are local cults so it depends on which particular religious subset of Hinduism you're talking about. IIRC you can't convert to most of the dominant Hindu religious groups but there's nothing to stop a variant of Hinduism developing that does allow for conversion.
 
It is one of many misconceptions about Hinduism.
Nobody understands the logic(or illogic) about caste system.
It was not a created one but an evolved one, for thousands of Years.
Also there is no restriction in any school of Hinduism from preventing of anyone from any caste.
All Hindu scholors are of the view that, if the Indian scociety is able to provide an alternate COMFORT ZONE(social security) the caste system will wane ,but in India it was not possible till 1900 and not possible even for atleast 80% population and the rest are not willing.

For example i am from an Orthodox Brahmin family ,but i renounced all brahmin rituals and informed my parents and relatives that i no longer considers myself brahmin.But the government asks my caste in various forms and wants me to declare Either FC(forward caste) or OC(other castes).
This happened in school,college and goverment employment.
 
@srinivasansharma: I'm absolutely no expert for India, but isn't it true that you can't convert to Hinduism? I mean, if you could, there'd be the question which caste you get in - if you could choose, everyone probably wanted to be in an upper caste, and if every convert had to be a Dalit, nobody wanted... so how is it?

dear friend,
before answering your question let me say something regarding the word hindu.
precisely what is the word hindu denotes?
or most reasonably --who is a hindu, in the first place?

so without knowing the meaning of the word hindu we cant go any further on hindu or hinduism or anything connected with them.

the supreme court of india once confronted this problem and was unable to answer the question who is a hindu?

so finally, they have to requote a popular nationalist leader who fought british in late 1800s and early 1900s.

he defined a hindu as a,
1.person who beleives in the supremacy of vedas.
or
2.person who believes that means of salvation are many and diverse.

if we explain the first point it will be like a introduction to hinduism and will lead more and more discussions,descriptions and elaborations.

so we stick to the second point that whoever beileives that means of salvation are many and diverse is a hindu.

so if you beleive god can be known,understood,reached in any form that may appeal to you then you become a hindu.

so as all polytheistic religions, hinduism is liberal and tolernat and subject to various experimentation and test of time and syncertic and may include all kind of religious practices from most bizzarre and primitive to most intellectual and esoteric.

so convering to hinduism is very personal choice, you simply have to choose a specific school of thought of hinduism which may appeal to your senses and intelligence and also applied as a personal religious practice.
as if youre in india you can see all kind of religious things done from primitive to esoteric.

you will see people piercing their body with sharp metals and people ardent disciples ogf j krishnamurthy, whose thoughts are much more advanced than many european contemporaries.
 
Great post. i wanted to ask this kind of scenario. The misconception of hinduism has been going on long. Before muslim occupation hinduism was open in accepting people into its folds, i will tell my understanding. as some one mentioned hindu society is divided into 4 castes
Brahmins : Teachers, scholars, administrators
Kshatriyas : warriors, protectors, kings
Vysyas : Business people, Agriculturists
Shudras : artisans, labor, craftsmen
Untouchables : Outcasts due to various reasons from all the castes.

This way of 'veli' making outcasts due to various reasons like committing crimes etc was supposed to be pardonable i think. after a generation they should have been allowed to their original castes.

So the caste system is something very simple so you are a greek artisan you would go into artisan caste like wood worker, weaver etc. say you are a business person you will go to business community etc. say in the modern scenarios lot of people are not particular about caste like srinivas and myself and people are changing. in ancient times caste system made lot of sense in ancient society as it is not relevant now it will fade away.

i have always dreamed about what would happen if there is a strong hindu king and a bunch of ministers smart as Arya Chanakya and went into offensive from the lessons of greek invasion and went and occupied world. but srinivas beat me into the question. No muslims and there will not be subjugation to british monarchy, i think india would have contributed in the fields of astronomy, medicine, mathematics and literature.
 
@srinivasansharma: I'm absolutely no expert for India, but isn't it true that you can't convert to Hinduism? I mean, if you could, there'd be the question which caste you get in - if you could choose, everyone probably wanted to be in an upper caste, and if every convert had to be a Dalit, nobody wanted... so how is it?

Since this thread has been raised from the grave....

It appears that some greeks became followers of "Hindu" (Indian) gods. Shiva in particular had followers among the Greeks.
 
1.this greek-india connection in AH context has tremendous possibilities if we just put thinking on it, because there are onlly few trimes in entire world history before 1500s when india and europe came into direct contact.

2.many scholors and historians have pointed out in many books and others about the striking similarity of intellectual and philosophical matters in addition to other fields like science technology art and culture, so any iodea of syncretic india europe events has tremendous plausibility and possibility.

3.also these can be one of the most anscient of all AH ideas so they are not considered seriously as no one can easily pedict rest of history for the next 2000+ years.


4.alexander's time is the best time in any indo-european conquests before 1500ad and may be we can also have a giagantic persian empire, an empire we can conceive as the best to come in west asia, just like the caliphets.
if caliphet can conquer all araes from spain to sind then there is a possibility of a great west asian empire bringing india and europe much closer.also kanishka leading kushanas had a empire from ganges to caspian sea so we can make it move at least into areas in south eastern europe , or around black sea easily, may be attila like person converting to buddhism before invading europe.


5.now another concept, the caste system in india is not understood well by many of the western friends, as theya re informed by the historians and scholrs outside india and by indian writers with caste prejudices.

the caste system was not planned , but it evolved along with indian society, sometime a simple social administartive tool getting much bigger than the society itself.

india's socio economic system is difficult to understand given the varied nature of the country as a whole.

we as ones still delving into a casteist society of india have first hand info. on castes and other concepts.

castes signify both racists and vocational connotations.
although frequent invasions of india from outsiders have changed, even the refined british rule had many impacts on the current caste system, with simple points like brahmin castes to be either priests or goverment employees rather than engaging in labourious vocations, this occupational pattern started in 1830s in bengal had been there till 1990s and only when IT revolution started in india , brahmins moved from government jobs en masse.
these are subtle things happened in british rule, then imagine what would have happened during all period from mauryas to moghuls.

also many westerners think higher castes have fair skin and lower castes have dark skin, in that case its a very big mistake, india has 7 large identifiable race grioups and is actually a melting point of races,
in south india a higher caste person may be as dark as aan african, in north inida a lower caste person may almost pass as a white person.

for example to understand caste system one must also know the racial,regional,religious and linguistic connotations.
for example if i say that i am a brahmin from india that hardkly gives a complete picture as you may think all brahmins from india who are about 5% of india's population are same.
in one place brahmins are vegetarians strictly, in one place they eat fish only, in other place mutton , but they dont eat beef in general, but highly cosmopolitan brahmins living in big cities lead a westernised life and are nearly misfits in conservative indian society,
if brahmins who are at the top caste hierarchy have such variations , then think other castes down there ,1000s of them and with 100s of subdivisions.

even that 5%is divided into many subcastes and sub sub castes and sub sub sub castes, soi there is very high variation even between each sub group within the main group, and even among sub groups by way of many sub divisions,
these variations are language spokesn,dialect used, dressing pattern,worship type,gods worshipped,place of worship, religious places, rituals, religious symbols,holy men or guru followed,food pattern,occupational nature etc.and 100s of many such variations.

so any largely known pattern is identified is identified as a whole of india although many common things subtle and great happen all over india.

imagine a nation with 6 or 7 major racial groups, 15-20 major languages,500+ minor languages with 100s of dialects,6 major religions with 5000+castes ,
actually me and my neighbour dont have anything in common,
for example that family is al;so braahmins, but they are vaishnavites ,we are shivites,
we celebrate different festivals on different days , pray to competing gods, and even women vary sarees in opposite directions and even the vegetarian food is cooked differently......
 
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I don't want this thread to go under. For one, this idea is interesting to me. Second of all, I have learnt more about India in this thread than I have in months.

I am unfortunately extremely ignorant of Hinduism, but can it encorporate other religions like the Druids of the Celts or that of the Greeks, Romans and Norse?

If the caste system was an evolved thing, then would the European social structure be similiar to OTL (King(Emperor), nobles, common men (merchants and others) and serfs?

What I mean is that would European Hinduism be very much a European thing with heavy Indian influence or would there be more likely more of a transfer of Hindu Gods to the Europeans.

The only propblem I have with the scenario is Islam. With a POD so far back, Christianity and Islam are likely to be butterflied away. This however does not stop some kind of Abrahamic (sp?) from arising however but it would be fun to develop. It would of course have a Hindu influence as well.

Please continue. I would love to see this idea fleshed out.
 
some thoughts

1.one of my chief complaints in AH articles and webistes is that , india is less represented and even ignored in many timelines and scenarios and even if anyone writes one about india and hindu its not well accepted.

2.this is because of the fact that westerners hardly know anything precisely about india and all accounts of this great nation cum civilization comes from the british historical views.

3.also from mid 80s and 90s the term hindu is strongly identified with the right wing political group of india and anyone who uses the word is immediately branded as a indian nationalist or fundamentalist, it is very painful to see the word in such a way , whereas the word actually implies the oldest and
still thriving religion or a synthesis of various religious practices of india, a religion with no founder,no organised church or a central authority or even books.

4.also india's contribution to humanity is immense be it art,language, science, mathematics or technology, it influenced and got influenced by the world for milleniums.

5.also many people are not accepting a scenario or timeline in which india dominating world affairs or overtaking europeans, i have read a article on past GDP of nations , in which a author categorily stated india contributed 25-30% of world GDP from 1AD to 1800AD, also everyone know that India 's share in world population is not less than 20-25% at anytime in world history.

6.also in cultural heritage and civilization accompolishment, india outscores most nations, it had seen the building of civilzation, the rise and fall of many empires,faced-withhold and absorbed alien culture into its psyche.
 
for any scenario in which india dominating world affairs,
the necessary conditions need not be aunited india but a india with a couple of powerful empires,
as small empires of south india deteermined the history and culture all of south east asia in OTL.

also throughout its history,india absorbed alien cultures very well into its psyche,
but it took very longer in absorbing islam , thats why it lost its dominance in the last millenium.

some PODs in which india can become much more powerful than anything are,
the 900-1000ad in which turks were invading india every now and then , even when the most kings at the north west were powerful
and most notably shahi,the ancestors of afghans who are as strong as any martial race in earth.
if anyone shahi king built a north indian empire, that would have made a lot of difference in future history.

the 1192 tarain war, in which prithiviraj lost to ghurids,
he previously forgave and let free them in a previous battle in 1191..
if he won that war, then india would have been free from islamic rule for some decades, as by 1220s and after mongols run riot on dar-ul-islam, and evn if they invaded
and conquered india,it would have done a host of good for india,
they would have united india so early, they will be absorbed in india as hindus or buddhists.

another POD is rana sangha letting babur free in 1520s even after cornering him in a battle field.

another one is tara shuko becoming king instead of aurangazeb,
remember the former is like akbar a unifying force and alreday inhearited the powerfuland prosperous empire on earth.
 
DREADNOUGHT JENKINS WROTE:
I don't want this thread to go under. For one, this idea is interesting to me. Second of all, I have learnt more about India in this thread than I have in months.

----thanks for your concerns and support

I am unfortunately extremely ignorant of Hinduism, but can it encorporate other religions like the Druids of the Celts or that of the Greeks, Romans and Norse?

---i will tell all about hinduism or point out related sources that may clarify your doubts,as far hinduism's incorporation with other native european religions, its very easy as see a lot of similaities between them, as many modern scholrs believe to be of from same source of a religion of a ancient indo-european culture that existed milleniums ago.
hinduism i beleive will do fantastically when coming into contact with these religions as there are many striking similarities between them, only thing in which hinduism differs from these religions is, hinduism is/was able to interwine a philosophical matters and popular beliefs in a common cultural heritage,that can be passed from one generation to another with constant modifications,updations, experimentations etc.

If the caste system was an evolved thing, then would the European social structure be similiar to OTL (King(Emperor), nobles, common men (merchants and others) and serfs?

as indian caste system is no way better or worser than any other social hierarchy present at europe in 1600s and 1700s, but it has stayed on as it was the only comfort zone for social peace and prosperity at difficult times.

What I mean is that would European Hinduism be very much a European thing with heavy Indian influence or would there be more likely more of a transfer of Hindu Gods to the Europeans.

may be similar or european version of hinduism, as hinduism is always localised but have a strong philosophic base that transedends space and time. as i know hinduism well and these european religions little , i can say one thing all roman and greek gods have their hindu equivalents and evn mythological charcters do the same, also hindu pantheon is very big and expanding , so new gods can be accomodated easily.
for example take the hindu god muruga, son of aryan gods shiva-parvati who are supposed to be residing in himalayas,but he lost prominence in north india after 10th century AD, but he is most popular in
south india that too in tamilnadu a heartland of dravidian people, where he is part of social and religious life of tamils for a millenium, i dont see anyone worshipping him in other places of india
he is also the supreme deity of a sub religion of hindusim called kaumaram, the creators of his epic have added a chapter in his legend saying that after his service was over in his position as the commander in chief of gods in a bitter battle with demons , he came back to earth and moved to tamilnadu and married a tamil woman called valli,
this idea made millions of tamil people accept him as a true tamil god, although by genealogy and epics he is truly an aryan god.
he is widely worshipped by tamils in india, srilanka,south east asia and even in USA and UK,wherever they are.

The only propblem I have with the scenario is Islam. With a POD so far back, Christianity and Islam are likely to be butterflied away. This however does not stop some kind of Abrahamic (sp?) from arising however but it would be fun to develop. It would of course have a Hindu influence as well.

in this case i decided to choose a variant of zorastrianism or even manichreanism to develop and flourish in the period 500-1500AD in west asia and north africa and there may be terrible holy wars between euro-hindus and these non-hindu ottomons for getting this passage to india free,
infact in this timeline also columbus and vasco da gama comes as they plan to cross oceans to find a easier way to reach the holy land of hindus.also the hindus at the time have reached and settled in south africa and many have even attempted to circumnavigate africa.some even travel wrongly to argentina from cape and even think it as europe.:D

Please continue. I would love to see this idea fleshed out
 
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