Hindu-buddhist Mesoamerica and Andes

Anawrahta

Banned
With any POD(s) after 1300, make the mesoamerica and andes regions predominantly native and adherent to hinduism or indian buddhism.
 
With any POD(s) after 1300, make the mesoamerica and andes regions predominantly native and adherent to hinduism or indian buddhism.

Well, I guess you could have the Chinese become more interested in overseas trade routes, stumbling upon the Americas, and making some natives convert to Buddhism. Hinduism is even harder, because India is far from the Pacific and the Atlantic. Perhaps some kind of Hindu Indonesian mega-empire? We're dealing with huge butterflies here.

Conquest would be difficult, mostly due to the distance, but also I don't think the traders/explorers/pirates would consider it seriously. The Spanish conquest was a thing of mostly luck OTL, I can't see a power from the Pacific repeating it. So conversion by conquest is out.

Another, more wild option, is Buddhist Polynesians (I don't think they were ever a thing but they could exist... maybe?) trading extensively with Andean communities. Eventually a syncretic religion appears, and a oportunistic coastal empire imposes it on the region. The Incas imposed the worship of Inti, the sun, basically by proclaiming it above the Huacas and local gods of the region. I could easily imagine a Buddhist trade empire doing the same with Buddha. Well, not easily... but...

Another option would be through inmigration. There were Chinese inmigrants to Mexico even in colonial times, and the Japanese and Asian communities in Peru and elsewhere are very strong. However I dobut you'll get a majority, perhaps a large minority at best.

In any case, the syncretism between Buddhism or Hinduism and native religion would be fascinating. I wonder how the cyclical perception of time (a common motif in both Mesoamrica and the Andes) would have interacted with them. Shintoism also has surprisingly much in common with the worship of natural features and spirits (Huacas) in Andean/Incan belief.

(As a fun aside, in one of my Civilization 4 games, I played as China, discovered the compass and optics, sent a caravel with a Taoist missionary to explore the Pacific Ocean, and converted the Incas to Taoism. Then they became my junior ally for the rest of the game. Fun times!)
 

Anawrahta

Banned
Well, I guess you could have the Chinese become more interested in overseas trade routes, stumbling upon the Americas, and making some natives convert to Buddhism. Hinduism is even harder, because India is far from the Pacific and the Atlantic. Perhaps some kind of Hindu Indonesian mega-empire? We're dealing with huge butterflies here.

Conquest would be difficult, mostly due to the distance, but also I don't think the traders/explorers/pirates would consider it seriously. The Spanish conquest was a thing of mostly luck OTL, I can't see a power from the Pacific repeating it. So conversion by conquest is out.

Another, more wild option, is Buddhist Polynesians (I don't think they were ever a thing but they could exist... maybe?) trading extensively with Andean communities. Eventually a syncretic religion appears, and a oportunistic coastal empire imposes it on the region. The Incas imposed the worship of Inti, the sun, basically by proclaiming it above the Huacas and local gods of the region. I could easily imagine a Buddhist trade empire doing the same with Buddha. Well, not easily... but...

Another option would be through inmigration. There were Chinese inmigrants to Mexico even in colonial times, and the Japanese and Asian communities in Peru and elsewhere are very strong. However I dobut you'll get a majority, perhaps a large minority at best.

In any case, the syncretism between Buddhism or Hinduism and native religion would be fascinating. I wonder how the cyclical perception of time (a common motif in both Mesoamrica and the Andes) would have interacted with them. Shintoism also has surprisingly much in common with the worship of natural features and spirits (Huacas) in Andean/Incan belief.

(As a fun aside, in one of my Civilization 4 games, I played as China, discovered the compass and optics, sent a caravel with a Taoist missionary to explore the Pacific Ocean, and converted the Incas to Taoism. Then they became my junior ally for the rest of the game. Fun times!)
 

Anawrahta

Banned
thanks for replying,
Ive heard the that chola empire briefly controlled parts of the philippines OTL, so I was wondering if a chola wank could result them undertaking the exploration of the northern pacific and sea of okhotsk, eventually stumbling on the aleutian islands and alaska. With gradual and itermittent exploration of the west coast over the course of three centuries would lead to the cholas or a chola successor state in the philippines stumbling upon mesoamerica or andean civilizations. I know its kind of a stretch, but given how the the portuguese were able to colonize parts ofnindonesia, it doesnt seem to implausible
 

Anawrahta

Banned
I’m not too sure whether the polynesians would have enough resources to sustain a long trade route from SE asia to the americas, but if we get the potato into New Zealand early perhaps we could.
SriVijaya and Majapahit are mote ideal candidates compared to Chola dynasty; and regarding chinese exploration, I could see the chinese establish relations with americas, then hindu southeast asians could fill the role as traders and missionaries
 
thanks for replying,
Ive heard the that chola empire briefly controlled parts of the philippines OTL, so I was wondering if a chola wank could result them undertaking the exploration of the northern pacific and sea of okhotsk, eventually stumbling on the aleutian islands and alaska. With gradual and itermittent exploration of the west coast over the course of three centuries would lead to the cholas or a chola successor state in the philippines stumbling upon mesoamerica or andean civilizations. I know its kind of a stretch, but given how the the portuguese were able to colonize parts ofnindonesia, it doesnt seem to implausible

Why would they want to go so far north? You'd really need a POD on the other side of the Pacific to get any reasonable amount of trade goods there. Like a later domestication of reindeer (the antlers were prized in traditional Chinese medicine), or new innovations in ship design for increased amounts of whaling and killing walrus (ivory and whale products were also in demand) which would also spur more trade links with Kamchatka and eventually Japan and China.

I’m not too sure whether the polynesians would have enough resources to sustain a long trade route from SE asia to the americas, but if we get the potato into New Zealand early perhaps we could.

If they reach the Americas, there's plenty of stuff that each side would want. The Juan Fernandez Islands, if settled by Polynesians, would be perfect for the introduction of potatoes to the Polynesians, and from there it's just a matter of figuring out how to get it back to Aotearoa. The other links in the trade network are the Line Islands (settled on the way to Hawaii by Polynesians), Cocos Island (links with Mesoamerica AND the Andes), and the Bonin Islands, the last of which would be settled by Micronesians. That gives you a nice, very long distance trade route which would move small quantities of goods across the Pacific.

All could (and most realistically would) be done after 1300.
 

Anawrahta

Banned
Perhaps a smallish indian trading cooperative sets up shop in the oshima peninsula hokkaido before the matsumae clan due to the extensive competition elsewhere in asia. These merchants would be trade intermediaries between the Ainu and the Northern Japanese. Over the course of many decades this trade guild would recruit Ainu and Siberian fishermen to tap the resources of the sea of okhotsk and bering sea such as fishing, whaling, and more importantly the fur trade. Then Aleutian Islands and Pacific Northwest would come into the knowledge of the Indians and Japanese, and with navigators generations later may explore the western parts of NA perhaps searching for Suvarandvipa(Indian) or Fusang(chinese/japanese) eventually discovering mexico. This trade complex would focus mostly on the expansion of trade network with siberian people which occured OTL.


They porbably reached the americas, but the great distances involved and the resource scarcity of the polynesian islands prevented a strong trade system from developing. Juan feranandez islands is quite far from easter island, though I could see the coastal Andean peoples adopting their sailing technology, which would massively bolster the extremely weak trade complex that existed. I'm not entirely sure why sailing was not adopted by the coastal Andeans

Why would they want to go so far north? You'd really need a POD on the other side of the Pacific to get any reasonable amount of trade goods there. Like a later domestication of reindeer (the antlers were prized in traditional Chinese medicine), or new innovations in ship design for increased amounts of whaling and killing walrus (ivory and whale products were also in demand) which would also spur more trade links with Kamchatka and eventually Japan and China.



If they reach the Americas, there's plenty of stuff that each side would want. The Juan Fernandez Islands, if settled by Polynesians, would be perfect for the introduction of potatoes to the Polynesians, and from there it's just a matter of figuring out how to get it back to Aotearoa. The other links in the trade network are the Line Islands (settled on the way to Hawaii by Polynesians), Cocos Island (links with Mesoamerica AND the Andes), and the Bonin Islands, the last of which would be settled by Micronesians. That gives you a nice, very long distance trade route which would move small quantities of goods across the Pacific.

All could (and most realistically would) be done after 1300.
 
This is an interesting thought, but I suggest it could only occur with a series of highly improbable events. First a few trading ships from the Khmer empire in 1300 somehow end up in the area around Peru. [Note: the Khmer seemed to have some seagoing tradition in the form of trade with Java]. This leads to sporadic trade between the proto-Inca's and the Khmer. Shortly thereafter they discover the huge silver deposit at Potosi [discovered by the Spanish in 1546]. This huge silver mine causes the Khmer to devote serious resources to the conquest of the Andes. They trade the silver with the Chinese Empire to the North, which in OTL was becoming desperate for silver around this time as it was the preferred sources of currency and their silver mines had collapsed. As a consequence, the Khmer become fabulously wealthy and create a trans-pacific empire to maintain their wealth and power. Khmer colonialism imposes their Hindu/Buddhist culture on the Andes region.

I see this as improbable bordering on ASB as there is no evidence that the Khmer ever undertook voyages across the Pacific (and little evidence the Chinese did). This improbability is compounded by the improbability of some small Khmer trading outfit stumbling on Potosi. I would be interested in the thoughts of others on this thread (particularly any with a specialty in Khmer history during this time period).
 
Perhaps a smallish indian trading cooperative sets up shop in the oshima peninsula hokkaido before the matsumae clan due to the extensive competition elsewhere in asia. These merchants would be trade intermediaries between the Ainu and the Northern Japanese. Over the course of many decades this trade guild would recruit Ainu and Siberian fishermen to tap the resources of the sea of okhotsk and bering sea such as fishing, whaling, and more importantly the fur trade.
I don't know if Japan would exactly tolerate an independent operation like that, especially its reporting back to a distant country.

Then Aleutian Islands and Pacific Northwest would come into the knowledge of the Indians and Japanese, and with navigators generations later may explore the western parts of NA perhaps searching for Suvarandvipa(Indian) or Fusang(chinese/japanese) eventually discovering mexico. This trade complex would focus mostly on the expansion of trade network with siberian people which occured OTL.

True, but there's a lot of furs, walrus ivory, etc. to harvest in Kamchatka and the Aleutians before you need to go much further. At such an early period, the methods of harvest would be less efficient and the market demand less, so stocks wouldn't collapse as fast. There wouldn't be a real idea of going much further beyond since it's nothing but the same coastal barbarians and their small villages for thousands of miles from their perspective. It's a ways away to any good gold rush site in Alaska too so it could take centuries before anyone finds this obvious incentive.

They porbably reached the americas, but the great distances involved and the resource scarcity of the polynesian islands prevented a strong trade system from developing. Juan feranandez islands is quite far from easter island, though I could see the coastal Andean peoples adopting their sailing technology, which would massively bolster the extremely weak trade complex that existed. I'm not entirely sure why sailing was not adopted by the coastal Andeans

From what I can tell, the problem the Polynesians had was that the islands tended to have the same resources and no specialization could really develop therefore there's few incentives for long distance trade, which would prove fatal for many islands (i.e. Pitcairn) when the times were tougher and the trade which existed dried up. Juan Fernandez on the other hand, while climatically unfavorable (like South Island was), would adopt potatoes rather quickly I suspect (solving the climate issue) and has sandalwood (unless the Polynesians drive it to extinction as whites did) to trade to South America in exchange for whatever they want. Hawaiian sandalwood could take its place and also be exported to East Asia/SEA since the Polynesians will know that foreigners value it greatly.

Sailing spreading all over the Americas would be great for local peoples, since it would increase the amount of trade and more immediately, the amount of fish they could harvest. Whaling might be benefitted as well.

This is an interesting thought, but I suggest it could only occur with a series of highly improbable events. First a few trading ships from the Khmer empire in 1300 somehow end up in the area around Peru. [Note: the Khmer seemed to have some seagoing tradition in the form of trade with Java]. This leads to sporadic trade between the proto-Inca's and the Khmer. Shortly thereafter they discover the huge silver deposit at Potosi [discovered by the Spanish in 1546]. This huge silver mine causes the Khmer to devote serious resources to the conquest of the Andes. They trade the silver with the Chinese Empire to the North, which in OTL was becoming desperate for silver around this time as it was the preferred sources of currency and their silver mines had collapsed. As a consequence, the Khmer become fabulously wealthy and create a trans-pacific empire to maintain their wealth and power. Khmer colonialism imposes their Hindu/Buddhist culture on the Andes region.

I see this as improbable bordering on ASB as there is no evidence that the Khmer ever undertook voyages across the Pacific (and little evidence the Chinese did). This improbability is compounded by the improbability of some small Khmer trading outfit stumbling on Potosi. I would be interested in the thoughts of others on this thread (particularly any with a specialty in Khmer history during this time period).
To my knowledge, I don't think Khmer ships would have carried the supplies needed to cross the Pacific and survive (assuming they get insanely lucky and their ship doesn't sink on the way). Going to Java is far different from crossing the Pacific.

There are two feasible ways across the Pacific for Asians--go northwards off the coast of Japan and Kamchatka to Alaska, or use the Manila Galleon route later used by Spain, which goes north of Hawaii and to California. The former was actually crossed by Asians throughout history albeit inadvertently (and never resulted in anyone making it home), and was the migration route used by American Indians. So it's probably straight up ASB, less probable than Sea Lion.
 

Anawrahta

Banned
Japan is under the rule of the relatively weak Kamakura and late Ashikaga Shogunates. The Indian trading association would probably pay tribute to the government in return for a trading agreement, assuming they are more comparable to the Dutch rather than the Portuguese. The indian traders would make deals with local daimyos and the success of the trade would depend how well they get along.Japan would not really consolidate until 1590, so any political issues they would face would be the conflicts between Daimyos such as the Sengoku.

True, but the development of trading relationships and adoption of new tech between the Ainu and Indians would mean that there would be exploration by Ainu settlers and traders along the Aleutian Islands and Pacific NW. This would precede Indian interest in the region.

I do not know the nature of the Polynesian-Amerindian relationship as it escaped written records. This scenario sounds plausible though.


Other southeast asians might join and eventually dominate the trade once it is fully established.
 
Top