Highly Arabized Persia?

How can Persia stay under Arab suzerainty for long enough that through a policy of Arab cultural supremacy the Persian language and culture be essentially wiped out, or be so Arabized as to become something not quite Arabic but definitely not Persian?

How can the various Turkic Muslim dynasties which underwent Persianization be stopped from gaining dominion over Persian lands, and keep Persia under strongly Arab rule?
 
I think the thought of an Arabized Persia is so implausible as Persians are the Middle Eastern counterparts of the Chinese
 

Delvestius

Banned
> Implying OTL Persians aren't already offensively Arabized

This is something my Persian teacher was very vocal about. She said they they had such a beautiful language and culture before the arrival of Arabs and Islam. She was very proud to be a strong, independent (old) Persian women, not one of those covered up Arab princess wives... At any rate, 40% of Persian words are Arabic cognates, and of course their script as well, replacing the native Pahlavi script.
 
I think the thought of an Arabized Persia is so implausible as Persians are the Middle Eastern counterparts of the Chinese

Same could be said of the Assyrians, they were the epicentre of a mighty empire with a long-lasting cultural influence, their language lived on as a lingua franca (or at least as an administrative one) with a lasting prestige.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
prevent writing or publication of Shahnameh ? it sometime argued that shahnameh prevent Persian language from disappearing.

Elamites at Khuzestan and Mesopotamian in Iraq does get Arabized, both area originally part of Persian Empire, so it certainly possible for other area to get Arabized too.
 
Same could be said of the Assyrians, they were the epicentre of a mighty empire with a long-lasting cultural influence, their language lived on as a lingua franca (or at least as an administrative one) with a lasting prestige.

Or Greek, for that matter. Greek went from being the lingua franca of the entire Eastern Mediterranean to a pretty insignificant modern language.

But I'd argue that Persian culture was pretty Arabised and that it was the political developments in the centuries since the establishment of Shia Islam in Persia that saw a shift away from Arabisation to a self consciously Persian identity.
 
Or Greek, for that matter. Greek went from being the lingua franca of the entire Eastern Mediterranean to a pretty insignificant modern language.

But I'd argue that Persian culture was pretty Arabised and that it was the political developments in the centuries since the establishment of Shia Islam in Persia that saw a shift away from Arabisation to a self consciously Persian identity.

Greek was more a language for the aristocracy and the scholarly in Roman times. It lost that status after the fall of Western Rome, and Latin, previously a language for the plebs, gained the same status.

But this should require more than Arabic being a language of prestige, for academia and courts. Some form of Arab cultural supremacy, such as was seen during the time of the Abbasid Caliphate must be enforced.

Movements of Persian language preservation must be prevented somehow.
 
Greek was more a language for the aristocracy and the scholarly in Roman times. It lost that status after the fall of Western Rome, and Latin, previously a language for the plebs, gained the same status.

I was talking about the Eastern Med, though- Koine Greek was the lingua franca of most classes of society until the Islamic conquests.
 
prevent writing or publication of Shahnameh ? it sometime argued that shahnameh prevent Persian language from disappearing.

Elamites at Khuzestan and Mesopotamian in Iraq does get Arabized, both area originally part of Persian Empire, so it certainly possible for other area to get Arabized too.

The difference being that neither of these areas where ever really 'Persian'. Whilst Elam was to an extent Persianised (and most of the area is considered Persian, which Khuzestan as only a small part of historical Elam), they were a language isolate that seems to predate Semitic colonisation of Mesopotamia.

Even when Mesopotamia was the political centre of the Persian Empire (due to it's wealth) it was never considered Persian or even Median. The popular spoken language appears to have been Akkadian, a Semitic language unrelated to Old Persian.
 
Well I think the premise you proposed in the opening posts is one of the better ones. Either stop the various Turkic tribes from invading and conquering Persia and assimilating into Persian culture. Or perhaps have the opposite happen, make them more successful with their initial conquests bringing them more Arab land, which in turn might make them choose to adopt Arabic customs instead. But the latter might also just create a Turko-Arabic and Turko-Persian divide.

If not that, for whatever reason have the Mongols ravage the Persian region like happened in history, but have some event at home make them turn around and thus spare the Arabs in the west. This leaves us with a depopulated Persia once again ripe to fall under Arab leadership and influence.
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
How about not having the Islamic conquests of Byzantium and Africa, instead just keep it going north and east making the Iranian plateau the center of Muslim civilization and Arab culture.
 
> Implying OTL Persians aren't already offensively Arabized

Persian culture is still very unique compared to the culture of the Bedouin, just as is Syrian and Iraqi culture - their languages may have been pushed out the way by Arabic, but their cultures are distinct. (Heck, Iraqi and Syrian Arabic are pretty different to Hejazi Arabic anyway).

This is something my Persian teacher was very vocal about. She said they they had such a beautiful language and culture before the arrival of Arabs and Islam. She was very proud to be a strong, independent (old) Persian women, not one of those covered up Arab princess wives... At any rate, 40% of Persian words are Arabic cognates, and of course their script as well, replacing the native Pahlavi script.

Persian is still a beautiful language and most Persians are proud of it regardless, but I can't lie and say I don't prefer the purer Middle Persian - it's a lot more similar to Hindi in its original form.

Same could be said of the Assyrians, they were the epicentre of a mighty empire with a long-lasting cultural influence, their language lived on as a lingua franca (or at least as an administrative one) with a lasting prestige.

Assyrians had a different situation though - Semitic people (which made the transition to Arabic easier) who lived in an open plain, unlike the Persians who were more numerous and lived in a much more mountainous and secluded landscape.

prevent writing or publication of Shahnameh ? it sometime argued that shahnameh prevent Persian language from disappearing.

Elamites at Khuzestan and Mesopotamian in Iraq does get Arabized, both area originally part of Persian Empire, so it certainly possible for other area to get Arabized too.

As Hrvatskiwi said, the Khuzestani were never really Persians, and keep in mind that the current province of Khuzestan is a much reduced size to the original Khuzestan and only a bit under half the population or so actually speak Arabic, with Lurs and Bakhtaris making up the remainder.

As for the Shahnameh, the Persian language survived because of both numerous speakers and resistance to Arab rule + the Abbasids endorsing Persian culture.

Or Greek, for that matter. Greek went from being the lingua franca of the entire Eastern Mediterranean to a pretty insignificant modern language.

But I'd argue that Persian culture was pretty Arabised and that it was the political developments in the centuries since the establishment of Shia Islam in Persia that saw a shift away from Arabisation to a self consciously Persian identity.

I don't think the culture ever was particularly Arabised, the language was and the religious elements of the culture were, but beyond that, Persian clothing, cuisine and lifestyle remained unique to that of the Arabs - I'd say if anything, the Turks had a bigger influence on our culture.
 
But this should require more than Arabic being a language of prestige, for academia and courts. Some form of Arab cultural supremacy, such as was seen during the time of the Abbasid Caliphate must be enforced.

I guess you mean the Omayyad Caliphate*? Under the Abbasids there was no enforced "Arab cultural supremacy" I could speak of, actually the Abbasid cultural elite was often very busy Persianizing Arabic tradition for quite a long while.

*Even then, it was more about Arab political supremacy.
 
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