High Seas Fleet Victorious

The High Seas Fleet did quite well in combat with the Grand Fleet. Jutland could have gone a lot worse for the British. Suppose that the entire British Battle Cruiser squadron was eliminated and attacks by German Destroyers eliminated another 5 British Battleships. It would have been the Greatest British Naval disaster of the war and might well have lead to a government crisis. Supose that this had happen and as a resulkt the British Government was more willing to accept peace talks with Germany in 1916. Might the war have ended much sooner and at a lesser cost of life?
 
Highly doubt it. The Germans basically sailed their entire fleet out into the North Sea that day, the British had several capital ships in drydock and under construction. The British, no matter the what damage they take, are still going to severly maul the Germans and they'll be back in port for weeks under going repairs. On top of that the British Isles themselves effectively block Germany's access to the Atlantic so there is no likelihood of the blockade being lifted.

The Dover Patrol and the pre-dreadnoughts down at the English Channel may be a little vulnerable for a few months, but its the German war machine that is slowly breaking down.
 
Germany had cut down on naval construction in 1912 and shifted even more resources to the Army in 1914, while the British kept the naval buildup their priority. In 1916, the expanding RN had gained power relative to the largely stagnating HSF.

So one needs a POD in 1914, a major German naval victory is much more likely at this time (despite the later improvement in damage control, that helped the HSF in 1916).

But in 1914, one waited for the Armies to be home at Christmas. There is little incentive to risk the HSF in a desperate battle ...
 

MrP

Banned
Germany had cut down on naval construction in 1912 and shifted even more resources to the Army in 1914, while the British kept the naval buildup their priority. In 1916, the expanding RN had gained power relative to the largely stagnating HSF.

So one needs a POD in 1914, a major German naval victory is much more likely at this time (despite the later improvement in damage control, that helped the HSF in 1916).

But in 1914, one waited for the Armies to be home at Christmas. There is little incentive to risk the HSF in a desperate battle ...

The HSF hadn't even drawn up any plans for war, IIRC. It'd be handy if they had something in the drawer when asked by the Chancellor/Kaiser.
 
The HSF hadn't even drawn up any plans for war, IIRC. It'd be handy if they had something in the drawer when asked by the Chancellor/Kaiser.

The HSF did have war plans. However, it really helps if the enemy is obliging enough to follow them. The Germans had expected that the British would carry out a close blockade of Germany and that they would be able to immediately come to blows with the Grand Fleet and destroy it in piecemeal. The British enacted the 'blockade at a distance' which the Germans had no response to. This is pretty much what lead to the raids upon British coastal towns that eventually lead to Jutland.
 

MrP

Banned
The HSF did have war plans. However, it really helps if the enemy is obliging enough to follow them. The Germans had expected that the British would carry out a close blockade of Germany and that they would be able to immediately come to blows with the Grand Fleet and destroy it in piecemeal. The British enacted the 'blockade at a distance' which the Germans had no response to. This is pretty much what lead to the raids upon British coastal towns that eventually lead to Jutland.

I know they expected the RN to follow a close blockade. But did they even have concrete plans for action in this eventuality?
 
The Germans, like everyone at the time, were disciples of Mahan but ignored half of his lesson; that naval power was a combination of fleet and geography. Germany was so deficient in geography that using fleet effectively to solve their naval problems was virtually unacheivable.

About the only chance the Germans had IOTL of lessening their geographical deficiency was if they had won the so called 'race to the sea' in 1914 and captured the French channel coast down to about the Somme river mouth. This would at least give them ready access to the eastern end of the Channel, and potentially much more scope for naval power.
 
I know they expected the RN to follow a close blockade. But did they even have concrete plans for action in this eventuality?

Sail up and engage the enemy. There isn't much more you can do to planning a naval engagement. The Germans - much like the Japanese of WWII - were very centered on the concept of 'Der Tag', the collossal New Trafalgar annhilation in one engagement battle.
 
Well, to actually address the question :)

If the RN lost ALL its BCs and 5 battleships, then this is UNCONTROVERTIBLY a MASSIVE German victory. One doesn't need to go into great detail about rival fleet strengths or grand strategy, its the morale boost, and huge morale kick in the teeth that will result

Asquith's government will fall, collapse and disintegrate, and some of the Liberal politicians who in late 1916 were able to ease themselves into its OTL follow-up may well here be swallowed up by the general disaster.

You are probably looking at a national unity government, probably led by a Tory and IIRC Henderson said that Labour would only serve under Balfour in such circumstances, and Balfour plays the elder statesman role well in this scenario

In many ways the HSF doesn't really have to DO much after this; sure, it makes great storylines if it DOES, but it just needs to repair all of its damage, get back to sea to show it can do, and be the potential threat it has been up to now. I really don't see anyone letting Scheer or Hipper go whizzing into the Channel. The British have enough battleships left, and many much stronger ones coming soon.

The HSF will probably get a reward in a quickening of construction for the Mackensens and Bayerns, but I doubt we would see another fleet battle

The result is going to be felt worst in Britain's prestige around the world, and especially in neutral countries who watch these things with interest.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Unlikely but possible

The High Seas Fleet was seriously outnumbered, but there are some routes that could lead to a German victory. Suppose that the Germans had discovered that the British were reading their codes...that could be exploited in many different ways.

If Fifth Battle Squadron hadn't been with the battlecruiser force that day, then more battlecruisers might well have been lost.

A close range, confused night engagement or fog could have resulted in a lot of ships on both sides torn to shreds...the tougher German construction and dud shells (on both sides, but more British) could have led to many British ships sunk, and many German ships staggering back to port.

Put the battle earlier, say in 1915, and the British edge is smaller, giving the Germans a better chance.

In OLT's Jutland, Lion came close to exploding..the miracle was that she didn't blow up. So it wouldn't take a huge delta to blow up Lion, and then to have Lutzow make it back. That turns the battle into a German victory tactically, and a British disaster IN THE POLITICAL FIELD. Brtiain's command of the seas isn't really changed. For that matter. Warspite's circling could have resulted in her being sunk had she been a little less lucky.

In the scenario postulated, 5 battleships and all battlecruisers sunk,there would be substantial German casualties also, so it could be painted as a victory. And even if German losses were light, they would be heavy in British papers and reports.

Incidently, at Jutland in OTL, Austrailia missed the battle.
 
Nothing, the only way the HSF could win the war for Germany was by either cutting Britain off from the world, or cutting the BEF off from Britain. Neither of these things would happen if the HSF had won at Jutland and gained parity with the GF. The HSF/Germany was hampered by the geography half of naval power throughout WW1, and in WW2 it was hampered by the fleet half of naval power.
 
Nothing, the only way the HSF could win the war for Germany was by either cutting Britain off from the world, or cutting the BEF off from Britain. Neither of these things would happen if the HSF had won at Jutland and gained parity with the GF. The HSF/Germany was hampered by the geography half of naval power throughout WW1, and in WW2 it was hampered by the fleet half of naval power.
However, that Just Means The REAL Effects won't be Felt until Another War Breaks out ...

Barring Butterflies Caused by Additional Bombardment Raids, German Re-Armament in The 30s Winds up Being More of a Naval Affair ...

How Does The Battle of Britain Change if The HSF is Simply Spoiling for a Return Engagement?

:D
 
The problem is that Jutland was a British trap that came close to succeeding.

The German goal was to use the HSF's full force on a portion of the RN, improving the odds although with 169 British capital ships to 99 Germans the odds of getting enough British ships sunk to greatly improve the odds without dangerous German losses was not too good.

To be brief, it appeared to the HSF that the opportunity had come and the reason the HSF then fled for port, never to seek a rematch, was because they suddenly realized the entire Grand Seas Fleet was coming at them.

A few British ships one way or the other doesn't change the reality that the Battle of Jutland was a strategic victory for the British. They held the seas and the Germans ran back to port, never to be seen again.
 
Fighting the GF is not a naval strategy for Germany, the HSF was just too weak to do it with any reasonable chance of winning. The engagement should have been part of a larger naval strategy, perhaps keeping the GF intact and diverting the attention from the real work being done to the BEFs supply shipping in the channel by light forces.
 
If the High Seas Fleet had inflicted those loses on the British while suffering a great deal less loses it might have been enough to cause the British government to fall or at the very lease seriously consider peace talks with the Central Powers. This must be the goal of the German government and its militaey.
 

trajen777

Banned
I always wondered if the Germans had taken a revolutionary approach

  • Could there airforce be used with either torpedoes or 15 or 16 inch modified shells – there was really no ant air defense at that time – was just not sure about the ability of the German air force – would have to be Gotha bombers or German seaplane bombers which had been available from 1915 on. So if the Germans had built lets say 500 vs. 145 at this time and used them to attack the Brit fleet along with U-boat lines
3view.gif



ARMAMENT: Movable Parabellum 7.9mm machine gun on turntable mounting in front cockpit and a Parabellum gun on traverse mounting on rear cockpit. (Interesting note is that this rear cockpit gun could be fired downward through an opening in the upper fuselage for belly defense). Twelve (10?) heavy Explosive (H.E.) bombs carried in twin chambers mounted within the fuselage between the pilot's and rear cockpit along with two external bombs in spring jaws under the forward section to correct tail heaviness. Some Gothas were seen to be carrying 6X50kg bombs externally between the landing gear. Total bomb capacity was 1,102 lb.
Jane's Fighting Aircraft of WWI explains ..
"The bomb dropping instruments carry 14 bombs in all. One in the front of the fuselage, an affair with spring jaws, contains two bombs lying longitudinally.
Two others placed between the pilot and the rear passenger contains up to six bombs each, piled one upon the other in a rectangular chamber, so arranged that as the lowest bomb is released, it is followed successfully by the other bombs."
Details
Role: Heavy Bomber
Span: 77ft 8ins
Length: 40ft 9ins
Max Speed: 87.5 mph
Ceiling 21,325 ft
Range: 522 miles
Endurance: 4 hours
Max Load: 1,100 lb
Norm Load: 660 lb
Weight: 6,039 lb
Loaded: 8,763 lb


  • I know the Germans tried using there Uboats in a line but lets say this was more successful and the Brit line could have been brought across the Uboat line?

 
Actually, It was the Germans that Pioneered Strategic Bombing so the use of it in Support of the Fleet is a good Idea.
 
I don't agree that the Germans were really focused on a a Trafalgar-type battle, because when you look at the situation in World War I, that kind of strategy could only end up benefiting the Germans. As I see it, the Germans do not need a fleet to survive. They are a predominantly land-based power, their colonies are not important, and they were able to largely survive the war even under the British blockade.

The British on the other hand are totally dependent on resources that they can only get by sea. If the Germans were able to force a real show-down battle, where they demonstrated that they were willing to risk their fleet for a victory, I think that the Germans would have been able to really hurt the British. If the Germans are able to force back the British, and allow some of their fast surface ships to slip out of the North Sea and harass British shipping, that could be a huge blow for the British. Basically, a mauling of the Grand Fleet, combined with an unrestricted submarine campaign, could bring Britain to her knees and allow a German victory.

The Germans had nothing to lose by risking their fleet, while the British have everything to lose. If the High Seas Fleet gets wrecked, well, too bad. If the Grand Fleet gets wrecked, then Britain would be laid open to have its resource arteries severally constricted. The Germans could win the war with a gamble like that, and its no skin off their noses if they lose.
 
I don't agree that the Germans were really focused on a a Trafalgar-type battle, because when you look at the situation in World War I, that kind of strategy could only end up benefiting the Germans. As I see it, the Germans do not need a fleet to survive. They are a predominantly land-based power, their colonies are not important, and they were able to largely survive the war even under the British blockade.

The British on the other hand are totally dependent on resources that they can only get by sea. If the Germans were able to force a real show-down battle, where they demonstrated that they were willing to risk their fleet for a victory, I think that the Germans would have been able to really hurt the British. If the Germans are able to force back the British, and allow some of their fast surface ships to slip out of the North Sea and harass British shipping, that could be a huge blow for the British. Basically, a mauling of the Grand Fleet, combined with an unrestricted submarine campaign, could bring Britain to her knees and allow a German victory.

The Germans had nothing to lose by risking their fleet, while the British have everything to lose. If the High Seas Fleet gets wrecked, well, too bad. If the Grand Fleet gets wrecked, then Britain would be laid open to have its resource arteries severally constricted. The Germans could win the war with a gamble like that, and its no skin off their noses if they lose.

The British blockade of Germany demonstrated that Germany needed a fleet to survive. Any loss to the High Seas Fleet is going effect moral. Don't think you meant 'North Sea', but North Atlantic. Any warships German commits to attacking British merchants are losses since they don't have the range of operations and won't be able to fight they way back thru the blockade.
 
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