High Seas Fleet as a Different Kind of Beast

[Franz Josef II]

The recent spate of threads concerning Imperial Germany, WWI, and/or the High Seas Fleet have made me wonder if the Navy could have taken a different trajectory. As I say that, I am not suggesting that Admiral Tirpitz, Prince Heinrich, and Kaiser Wilhelm are going to change their minds about a large fleet of battleships which - hopefully - could rival the British fleet.

As was recently commented - and perhaps many of us were aware of previously - the High Seas Fleet while powerful and useful in the North Sea and the Baltic was quite limited in the sense of being very short ranged. The vessels lacked crew accomodations, with barracks being erected in the navy ports. So, I was wondering as a result of reading recent posts: could the ships of the High Seas Fleet be designed with similar long - range projection in mind as the British, at the same time retaining at least most of their excellent armor? Should this prove to be at any rate more expensive, I don't expect that the powers that be would be altogether worried, because the HSF in OTL was quite expensive.

I would suggest as well that rather than be enthralled by Mahan, perhaps Kaiser Wilhelm has a greater envy of the seemingly effortless way in which Great Britain can impose her will and project her power across the globe with her Navy. That is, after all, one of the goals that Wilhelm had with regards to "his" fleet. I look forward to your suggestions!

 

[Hashoosh]

It would certainly be more expensive, and the extra room for crew accommodations (sleeping quarters, galley, desalination, storage for rations etc...) would need to come from somewhere.

I don't know where the impetus for this would originate though, the main problem with the HSF is that it has to exit the North Sea to get into global shipping lanes/the colonies. Which means in the event of a war, they'll be fighting the British Fleet and their long legs won't mean anything until after they've beaten the Royal Navy; in which case they could just use long-legged cruisers and the such.

What are the figures for costs between the British and German BBs? I also don't know how much of a British ship's space (and thus tonnage overall) would be devoted to allowing the crew to live aboard, and the comparable data for German ships would also be needed.

Given the HSF immense expense to the Germany OTL, maybe we see a smaller one better able to project power, and not explicitly designed to break the Home Fleet in the North Sea. Maybe that means Britain never gets nervous about it, and the lead up to WWI is significantly altered. But knowing Willy2, I seriously doubt it.

 

[Glenn239]

As was recently commented - and perhaps many of us were aware of previously - the High Seas Fleet while powerful and useful in the North Sea and the Baltic was quite limited in the sense of being very short ranged. The vessels lacked crew accomodations, with barracks being erected in the navy ports.

A Konig was good for 8,000nm and was a floating hotel compared to the unbelievably cramped accommodations aboard a U-boat.

So, I was wondering as a result of reading recent posts: could the ships of the High Seas Fleet be designed with similar long - range projection in mind as the British, at the same time retaining at least most of their excellent armor?

Certainly, but given the historical attitude of the German navy, one assumes such ships too would have sat in port doing not much of anything.

I would suggest as well that rather than be enthralled by Mahan, perhaps Kaiser Wilhelm has a greater envy of the seemingly effortless way in which Great Britain can impose her will and project her power across the globe with her Navy.

Mahan was interesting, but Germany was a land power, and as a landpower, what Germany *really* needed was quantities of very specific items, such as rubber, nitrates, and oil. As you mention, since the defeat of the Grand Fleet was not a prerequisite in the pre-radar era to accessing the Atlantic, the HSF doctrine of decisive battle was not necessary for the HSF to have exercised a strategy in support of land power.

 

[Hashoosh]

Mahan was interesting, but Germany was a land power, and as a landpower, what Germany *really* needed was quantities of very specific items, such as rubber, nitrates, and oil. As you mention, since the defeat of the Grand Fleet was not a prerequisite in the pre-radar era to accessing the Atlantic, the HSF doctrine of decisive battle was not necessary for the HSF to have exercised a strategy in support of land power.

Defeating the Grand Fleet might not be needed for accessing the Atlantic, but there's the problem that your only line of supply for the navy runs right past them.

There's also the ability to lay mines from Britain to Norway, and if the Germans ever want to return they'll have to run the gauntlet again. So any HSF really does need to be able to at least have some chance of taking on the Homefleet if it's design imperative is to project power globally.

 

[Glenn239]

Defeating the Grand Fleet might not be needed for accessing the Atlantic, but there's the problem that your only line of supply for the navy runs right past them.

There's also the ability to lay mines from Britain to Norway, and if the Germans ever want to return they'll have to run the gauntlet again. So any HSF really does need to be able to at least have some chance of taking on the Homefleet if it's design imperative is to project power globally.

Sounds more like a formula to sit in port and do nothing, as the HSF could never realistically hope to challenge the Grand Fleet in open battle, and due to geography, its communications would always be insecure even if it could.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Sounds more like a formula to sit in port and do nothing, as the HSF could never realistically hope to challenge the Grand Fleet in open battle, and due to geography, its communications would always be insecure even if it could.

Sound familiar, don't it?

 

[BlondieBC]

The recent spate of threads concerning Imperial Germany, WWI, and/or the High Seas Fleet have made me wonder if the Navy could have taken a different trajectory. As I say that, I am not suggesting that Admiral Tirpitz, Prince Heinrich, and Kaiser Wilhelm are going to change their minds about a large fleet of battleships which - hopefully - could rival the British fleet.

As was recently commented - and perhaps many of us were aware of previously - the High Seas Fleet while powerful and useful in the North Sea and the Baltic was quite limited in the sense of being very short ranged. The vessels lacked crew accomodations, with barracks being erected in the navy ports. So, I was wondering as a result of reading recent posts: could the ships of the High Seas Fleet be designed with similar long - range projection in mind as the British, at the same time retaining at least most of their excellent armor? Should this prove to be at any rate more expensive, I don't expect that the powers that be would be altogether worried, because the HSF in OTL was quite expensive.

I would suggest as well that rather than be enthralled by Mahan, perhaps Kaiser Wilhelm has a greater envy of the seemingly effortless way in which Great Britain can impose her will and project her power across the globe with her Navy. That is, after all, one of the goals that Wilhelm had with regards to "his" fleet. I look forward to your suggestions!

Long range fleet projection will require cruisers, often light cruisers. And some minor bases around the world. Since building these means fewer capital ships, it will actually reduce tensions between Germany and the UK. Build say 3 fewer capital ships and 15 or so longer range cruisers for protection of trade routes, and you have a much better fleet.

 

[rast]

The recent spate of threads concerning Imperial Germany, WWI, and/or the High Seas Fleet have made me wonder if the Navy could have taken a different trajectory. As I say that, I am not suggesting that Admiral Tirpitz, Prince Heinrich, and Kaiser Wilhelm are going to change their minds about a large fleet of battleships which - hopefully - could rival the British fleet.

The HSF was never designed to rival the RN. It was just to be large enough to make a British attack so costly that British leaders would think twice before siding against Germany. It was thus designed as an element to enforce British neutrality in a conflict on the European continent.

That Britain would adopt a wide blockade was not necessarily predictable. Such a wide blockade did not correspond with established international laws. Only a narrow blockade did; and for that the British would have to come into the Heligoland Bight in force, meeting the HSF just as planned by Tirpitz.

The wide blockade only became possible because the largest and most powerful neutral, the US, were not really neutral but actively supporting the Entente (according to Koogan "The End of Neutrality", US neutrality was completely gone by February 1915 - the US had factually become a co-belligerent of the Entente).

 

[sharlin]

But you're still going to provoke the UK and RN into reacting.

"Germany."
"Yes?"
"Why are you building lots and lots of cruisers and long range vessels, you don't really have an empire to oversee."
"Oh these are for...er..pleasure cruises..."
"Not merchant raiding against the primary power on the planet that relies a huge amount on merchant shipping?"
"Umm.....maybe?"
*BRITISH MOUSTACHE TWITCHING AND NOSTRIL FLARING INTENSIFIES!*

 

[Dain]

But you're still going to provoke the UK and RN into reacting.

"Germany."
"Yes?"
"Why are you building lots and lots of cruisers and long range vessels, you don't really have an empire to oversee."
"Oh these are for...er..pleasure cruises..."
"Not merchant raiding against the primary power on the planet that relies a huge amount on merchant shipping?"
"Umm.....maybe?"
*BRITISH MOUSTACHE TWITCHING AND NOSTRIL FLARING INTENSIFIES!*

There was no diplomatic exchange between the Empire and Germany in that epoch that didn't end with British moustache twitching and nostril flaring (and maybe some threats of war thrown in for good measure). So everything went just about as well as expected.

 

[Driftless]

Kind of along the same lines as the cruiser thought, would the Germans have been better served with developing and deploying longer range submarines, auxialliary cruisers, or purpose built raiding cruisers? The focal point would be more on extending the range, and reducing the frequency of replenishment and the risks that went with that process.