Hepthalites conquer Persia

How plausible would it have been for the Hepthalites or White Huns to have conquered the Iranian plateau and the surrounding areas and set up their own (longer-lasting?) state in a situation similar to the Ilkhantate?

Would they have become Persianised? (Is that even a word?) Would they adopt Zoroastrianism?

I confess I don't know much about the Hepthalites. What was the relationship between them and the Sassanids? Was it similar to that of the WRE and the Hunnic Empire under Atilla?
 
Probably since it is something of a trend among invaders to Persia. Be they Turk, Arab, or Macedonian they have been lured by the culture and voice of Persia.

As for being able to? I think the Gokturks have a better chance. Though, perhaps of the reign of Khosrau had self-destructed earlier. The usurpr Bahram certainly shows that he had a weak starting reign.

Well, if Bahram is defeated by the Gokturks/Hepthalites then it may just butterfly the Byzantine-Sassanid conflict.
 
I think I had, in my TL, Persia over-extend itself against a somewhat more powerful Empire of Justinian, which led to a civil war, which then saw one side bring in the Hephtalites, who ended up eventually taking over the place, only for them to become overextended, loose their homelands to the Turks and become another ruling dynasty of Persia that was eventually disposed of by the natives.
 
This is a very interesting scenario. One important question is when exactly do the Hephthalites conquer Persia. Before speculating, I want to lay out the historical scenario (as I understand it, some of this could be wrong).

In 483 the Hephthalites invaded Persia and went on a two year rampage. The Sassanid Emperor when the White Huns invaded was Peroz I, who was killed on the battle field in 484, his army wiped out. His brother and successor, Balash, paid the White Huns an enormous tribute to leave. He ruled for four years before Kavadh I, a son of Peroz, rose in revolt. Kavadh apparently had married a daughter of the Hephthalite King, and acted with his father-in-law's blessing at the head of a Hephthalite army. With the army outside the gates of the capital, Balash was blinded and deposed by a group of priests and nobles and Kavadh installed as emperor.

Kavadh supported a religious group known as the Mazdaki sect, who advocated rich men divide their wives and wealth with the poor. This obvious attempt to curtail the magnates who had overthrown his predecessor failed and Kavadh was deposed by the magnates and locked away in a tower in Susa. His brother, Djamasp, became emperorIt should be noted that and ruled briefly from 496-8. But Kavadh was able to escape the tower and returned in 498 with 30,000 troops from the Hephthalite King. His brother abdicated and Kavadh began his second reign as Emperor of Persia. In that year he had to pay a tribute to the Hephthalites, perhaps for their assistance in placing him back on the throne, perhaps it was just an annual demand. But regardless, Kavadh could not pay and so sought subsidies from Rome. Emperor Anastasius refused,in hopes that the two eastern empire would turn on themselves.

I should note that the information I have been able to turn up is all very sketchy on the details. So a lot of these connections are tenuous, but it seems plausible to me that though Kavadh could not pay tribute, he managed to prevent conflict with the Hephthalites (who, remember, were ruled by the man who was his father-in-law) by suggesting a war against the rich Roman Empire. The Hephthalites agreed and in 502 hostilities began around Armenia. The war was interested by an invasion of Western Huns (not Hephthalites) through the Caucuses, necessitating a peace treaty wherein Rome paid the Sassanids tribute. Presumably most of that tribute went straight into the coffers of the Hephthalites.

From there on the relationship between the Sassanids and Hephthalites becomes much more difficult to ascertain. I'm going to stop my historical summary for now, because I just had a nifty little POD idea. Suppose that Kavadh was murdered, rather than imprisoned. Then in 498 when the Hephthalites come demanding tribute, Emperor Djamasp has no familial connection to prevent an invasion when it becomes obvious they cannot pay. Rather than a Roman-Persian War in 502, we have a Sassanid-Hephthalite War in 499, a quick and total victory for the Hephthalites, who, this time, decide to set up shop in the Iranian plateau permanently instead of just plundering and leaving.

This is massive, to say the least. The Hephthalite Empire is now one of the largest land empires in history up to this point. Of course, it is no sure thing that the Hephthalites could hang on to establish a lasting dynasty, but I don't see why not. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the White Huns to speculate on what their empire might look like or do. Any ideas?
 
This is a very interesting scenario. One important question is when exactly do the Hephthalites conquer Persia. Before speculating, I want to lay out the historical scenario (as I understand it, some of this could be wrong).

In 483 the Hephthalites invaded Persia and went on a two year rampage. The Sassanid Emperor when the White Huns invaded was Peroz I, who was killed on the battle field in 484, his army wiped out. His brother and successor, Balash, paid the White Huns an enormous tribute to leave. He ruled for four years before Kavadh I, a son of Peroz, rose in revolt. Kavadh apparently had married a daughter of the Hephthalite King, and acted with his father-in-law's blessing at the head of a Hephthalite army. With the army outside the gates of the capital, Balash was blinded and deposed by a group of priests and nobles and Kavadh installed as emperor.

Kavadh supported a religious group known as the Mazdaki sect, who advocated rich men divide their wives and wealth with the poor. This obvious attempt to curtail the magnates who had overthrown his predecessor failed and Kavadh was deposed by the magnates and locked away in a tower in Susa. His brother, Djamasp, became emperorIt should be noted that and ruled briefly from 496-8. But Kavadh was able to escape the tower and returned in 498 with 30,000 troops from the Hephthalite King. His brother abdicated and Kavadh began his second reign as Emperor of Persia. In that year he had to pay a tribute to the Hephthalites, perhaps for their assistance in placing him back on the throne, perhaps it was just an annual demand. But regardless, Kavadh could not pay and so sought subsidies from Rome. Emperor Anastasius refused,in hopes that the two eastern empire would turn on themselves.

I should note that the information I have been able to turn up is all very sketchy on the details. So a lot of these connections are tenuous, but it seems plausible to me that though Kavadh could not pay tribute, he managed to prevent conflict with the Hephthalites (who, remember, were ruled by the man who was his father-in-law) by suggesting a war against the rich Roman Empire. The Hephthalites agreed and in 502 hostilities began around Armenia. The war was interested by an invasion of Western Huns (not Hephthalites) through the Caucuses, necessitating a peace treaty wherein Rome paid the Sassanids tribute. Presumably most of that tribute went straight into the coffers of the Hephthalites.

From there on the relationship between the Sassanids and Hephthalites becomes much more difficult to ascertain. I'm going to stop my historical summary for now, because I just had a nifty little POD idea. Suppose that Kavadh was murdered, rather than imprisoned. Then in 498 when the Hephthalites come demanding tribute, Emperor Djamasp has no familial connection to prevent an invasion when it becomes obvious they cannot pay. Rather than a Roman-Persian War in 502, we have a Sassanid-Hephthalite War in 499, a quick and total victory for the Hephthalites, who, this time, decide to set up shop in the Iranian plateau permanently instead of just plundering and leaving.

This is massive, to say the least. The Hephthalite Empire is now one of the largest land empires in history up to this point. Of course, it is no sure thing that the Hephthalites could hang on to establish a lasting dynasty, but I don't see why not. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the White Huns to speculate on what their empire might look like or do. Any ideas?
I know very little about the subject, but this would make a great POD.
 
How plausible would it have been for the Hepthalites or White Huns to have conquered the Iranian plateau and the surrounding areas and set up their own (longer-lasting?) state in a situation similar to the Ilkhantate?

Would they have become Persianised? (Is that even a word?) Would they adopt Zoroastrianism?

I confess I don't know much about the Hepthalites. What was the relationship between them and the Sassanids? Was it similar to that of the WRE and the Hunnic Empire under Atilla?

1) Persia does seem to alway be falling to some horse nomad or another, so I dont see it as implausible
2) almost certainly, but Zoroastrianism isn't really interested in conversion so that will take a while
 
1) Persia does seem to alway be falling to some horse nomad or another, so I dont see it as implausible
2) almost certainly, but Zoroastrianism isn't really interested in conversion so that will take a while

Actually, the Sassanids had very Conversion friendly policies.
 
This is a very interesting scenario. One important question is when exactly do the Hephthalites conquer Persia. Before speculating, I want to lay out the historical scenario (as I understand it, some of this could be wrong).

In 483 the Hephthalites invaded Persia and went on a two year rampage. The Sassanid Emperor when the White Huns invaded was Peroz I, who was killed on the battle field in 484, his army wiped out. His brother and successor, Balash, paid the White Huns an enormous tribute to leave. He ruled for four years before Kavadh I, a son of Peroz, rose in revolt. Kavadh apparently had married a daughter of the Hephthalite King, and acted with his father-in-law's blessing at the head of a Hephthalite army. With the army outside the gates of the capital, Balash was blinded and deposed by a group of priests and nobles and Kavadh installed as emperor.

Kavadh supported a religious group known as the Mazdaki sect, who advocated rich men divide their wives and wealth with the poor. This obvious attempt to curtail the magnates who had overthrown his predecessor failed and Kavadh was deposed by the magnates and locked away in a tower in Susa. His brother, Djamasp, became emperorIt should be noted that and ruled briefly from 496-8. But Kavadh was able to escape the tower and returned in 498 with 30,000 troops from the Hephthalite King. His brother abdicated and Kavadh began his second reign as Emperor of Persia. In that year he had to pay a tribute to the Hephthalites, perhaps for their assistance in placing him back on the throne, perhaps it was just an annual demand. But regardless, Kavadh could not pay and so sought subsidies from Rome. Emperor Anastasius refused,in hopes that the two eastern empire would turn on themselves.

I should note that the information I have been able to turn up is all very sketchy on the details. So a lot of these connections are tenuous, but it seems plausible to me that though Kavadh could not pay tribute, he managed to prevent conflict with the Hephthalites (who, remember, were ruled by the man who was his father-in-law) by suggesting a war against the rich Roman Empire. The Hephthalites agreed and in 502 hostilities began around Armenia. The war was interested by an invasion of Western Huns (not Hephthalites) through the Caucuses, necessitating a peace treaty wherein Rome paid the Sassanids tribute. Presumably most of that tribute went straight into the coffers of the Hephthalites.

From there on the relationship between the Sassanids and Hephthalites becomes much more difficult to ascertain. I'm going to stop my historical summary for now, because I just had a nifty little POD idea. Suppose that Kavadh was murdered, rather than imprisoned. Then in 498 when the Hephthalites come demanding tribute, Emperor Djamasp has no familial connection to prevent an invasion when it becomes obvious they cannot pay. Rather than a Roman-Persian War in 502, we have a Sassanid-Hephthalite War in 499, a quick and total victory for the Hephthalites, who, this time, decide to set up shop in the Iranian plateau permanently instead of just plundering and leaving.

This is massive, to say the least. The Hephthalite Empire is now one of the largest land empires in history up to this point. Of course, it is no sure thing that the Hephthalites could hang on to establish a lasting dynasty, but I don't see why not. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the White Huns to speculate on what their empire might look like or do. Any ideas?

Wow. Thanks for the information. That seems like a good idea and POD.

I do have doubts about the White Huns organisation. I'm not sure if they were anything like the Hunnic Empire, or if they would fall apart the same way when their Atilla dies.

As for the size of their expanded empire, I was thinking something along the lines of Timur's empire at it's maximum extent (with the exception of Colchis and possibly the Persian-dominated half of Armenia) with a bit more Central Asian territory. I'd imagine that they would lose quite a bit of their original territories when the Gokturks come along and that they would keep the Hunas (Indo-Hephthalites) semi-independent as a buffer state between them and the Indian states.

In terms of religion, I read that they allowed the worship of Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Nestorian Christianity. If they played their cards right, like the Parthians, they would tolerate all those religions, to the displeasure of the Byzantines.
 
Actually, the Sassanids had very Conversion friendly policies.

Are you sure about that? I thought the Sassanids were very aggressive about spreading Zoroastrianism, with some Emperors going as far as to persecute Christians and Jews.


Wow. Thanks for the information. That seems like a good idea and POD.

I do have doubts about the White Huns organisation. I'm not sure if they were anything like the Hunnic Empire, or if they would fall apart the same way when their Atilla dies.

Judging by the fact that the White Huns held it together as an empire for around a century and a half, I think it is safe to say they would not disintegrate after the death of one leader like what happened with the western Huns and Attila. Particularly, as the King of Malta (is that you Jobberik? It's been too long since I was active here) pointed out, if the Hephthalites adopt Persian techniques of government. I am interested though in finding out what we know about White Hun culture as it was...the customs and whatnot that would impact court life. I really wish we had more on these guys.


As for the size of their expanded empire, I was thinking something along the lines of Timur's empire at it's maximum extent (with the exception of Colchis and possibly the Persian-dominated half of Armenia) with a bit more Central Asian territory. I'd imagine that they would lose quite a bit of their original territories when the Gokturks come along and that they would keep the Hunas (Indo-Hephthalites) semi-independent as a buffer state between them and the Indian states.

Think bigger, at least initially. Combine the Hephthalites and Sassanids on this map. Note how the White Huns also have significant holdings in India while the Gupta Empire to the east collapses. I did some more digging and it looks like the seat of the Hephthalite Empire was in Sialka at this time, which is on the Indus River. After some thinking, I don't know that the Hephthalites would have overrun Persia and then ruled from Persia. Persia itself might merely have been a province of a larger empire with its core in the east.

Asia_500ad.jpg



In terms of religion, I read that they allowed the worship of Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Nestorian Christianity. If they played their cards right, like the Parthians, they would tolerate all those religions, to the displeasure of the Byzantines.

That would be quite interesting. A large, religiously tolerant empire from the steppes of Asia. An earlier Mongol Empire, anyone? I can easily see the next Hephthalite king conquering what remains of the Gupta Empire, which would give them a port on the eastern Indian Ocean.
 
Are you sure about that? I thought the Sassanids were very aggressive about spreading Zoroastrianism, with some Emperors going as far as to persecute Christians and Jews.
.

Thats what I mean't by 'Friendly'. Forgot the ''

Though, do note that the Arabs did not win Persia easily. Once they had it they faced several large scale revolts for at least two hundred years.
 
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Thats what I mean't by 'Friendly'. Forgot the ''

Though, do note that the Arabs did not win Persia easily. Once they had it they faced several large scale revolts for at least two hundred years.

That's true. And if the Hephthalites don't move their capital to Persia they may not hang onto it for more than a few decades. But then again, maybe not. Maybe their empire breaks up into pieces still ruled by hephthalites (a father dividing into three pieces; the steppe, Persia, and northern India).
 
I'm really digging this scenario, so I'm going to keep this thread going.

Here's a topic that other people might bite. If Justinian doesn't have to worry about a hostile army on his frontier in the mid-6th century, how much of the western empire will Belisarius be able to reclaim?
 
That's true. And if the Hephthalites don't move their capital to Persia they may not hang onto it for more than a few decades. But then again, maybe not. Maybe their empire breaks up into pieces still ruled by hephthalites (a father dividing into three pieces; the steppe, Persia, and northern India).

Still, unless the Hephalites forbid speaking Persian and other cultural values short of destroying it and winning the resulting revolts they are going to be Persianized
 
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