Henschel 129 built with more powerful engine

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Deleted member 1487

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_129
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_132

What if the Hs129 was designed around the BMW 132 radial air cooled engine of 950hp? Historically this aircraft was initially built with the the Argus 410 engine which only put out 450hp, which left the aircraft horribly underpowered. It was undeployable when first delivered in 1941 and required the more powerful Gnome-Rhone engines that put out about 700hp, but this delayed the entry of this CAS aircraft until 1942 and it was still underpowered.
It proved to be a necessary and successful aircraft in CAS, but was always viewed as the 'red headed stepchild' of the Luftwaffe and not really a focus of resources, which prevented it from making a greater impact on the Eastern Front.

So what if the designers were given access to the necessary powered engines? The aircraft would have to be bigger to accommodate the larger engines, which is actually a good thing, as a major complaint about the Hs129 was that it was too cramped. The larger aircraft would be heavier, but with nearly 2000hp instead of the 1400hp of OTL the Hs129 could handle the extra weight (about 1500kg at most). This would mean that it would be designed from the beginning with more powerful engines, so wouldn't need to be delayed to be redesigned for new engines. It would also be able to take the upgrades of weapons packages much better than OTL version.

Where are these extra engines to come from? Well the BMW 132 was used for the Ju52 transport aircraft, which was pretty important to the war effort so the engines will have to come from that pool. Germany in 1939 and 1940 had serious problems with organizing her industry and could have produced extra engines, say in the VW factory built just before the war started and was never utilized to full capacity during the war and between 1939-1942 the factory was using less than 50% of productive capacity. So the engines could have been produced there, as they were already making air cooled auto engines for the Kuebelwagen. Also the BMW 132 was one of the cheapest engines to make during the war for Germany and was produced for a number of years prior to the war, meaning its production wasn't something that would require a major learning curve to open a new live for its production. What was lacking was the will to do so (and the bureaucratic organization/unity of purpose) , not the resources.

So what impact would this CAS aircraft have? The early models had the 20mm cannons, which had access to the tungsten core ammunition stockpiled pre-war in the millions, so would be more effective than the caliber would indicate. Plus in 1941 the Luftwaffe had air superiority over the Eastern Front, not that that was the major problem of the Hs 129, which historically lost many more, by a factor of 3 or 4 to 1, to ground fire from 3cm+ AA guns than to fighter planes.

The testing units received their first models OTL in November of 1940, so that would mean that the mass production of these aircraft would start until 1941 and the time it would take to create units would mean that they would likely miss the first phase of combat in Barbarossa, though the testing units would get to fly in combat, as they did with the other models. So the first squadrons would appear some time in August so would be around for the Kiev pocket and other battles. Obviously 1941 isn't going to be very different.

From 1942 on things start to get interesting, as production increases and more models appear at the front. Also the need for better cannons is revealed earlier, so they potentially would be getting the 30mm cannons earlier than historical. Historically the small numbers of Hs129s flew over 3000 sortees during 1942, so they had a large demand and more of them would help reduce German losses during their advance and increase Soviet losses.

During 1943 would be the large effect. By now the 30mm would be in widespread use, as would the Hs129. It would have all of its issues sorted out and be an effective tank killer.

What effects would the more widespread Hs129 have from 1942 onward in the big tank battles that were occurring? Would the effect of a solid tank buster help the Germans on the Eastern Front enough to influence the outcomes of some battles through the added attrition of Soviet tanks/vehicles?
 
Gnome-Rhone 14N engines could also power an enlarged HS-129, but it would still be an all-new enlarged aircraft, and it didn't seem to garner any priority points with the Luftwaffe. There was an intention to use the Me-210 in the ground attack role, and the program's failure was poorly addressed. The weapons used in the role always seem to be adaptations of ground-based weapons which failed to keep up with the increasing armor protection found in later tanks. The MK-103 30mm cannon had good velocity, but low kinetic punch. Effective use required close firing range which also caused high losses due to ground fire. The BK37 was a better weapon, but it was for Stukas. Go figure.
 

Paul MacQ

Donor
Well you are talking about a new aircraft The Gnome-Rhône 14M was a very small compact engine. Some of the talk on the forums about re-engine aircraft often do not take into account of this like size and the effort of reengineering an aircraft to scale up to the engines
The Hs129 used the tiny Gnome-Rhône 14M because it was a small aircraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnome-Rhône_14M
Length: 9.75 m(32ft) • Wingspan: 14.20 m(46 ft 7 in) • Height: 3.25 m(10 ft 8 in)
You are basically looking at a new aircraft to get larger engine options

This goes for other re-engines options I have seen mentioned Often. Like the Merlin replacing the Peregrine in the Westland Whirlwind
R-R Peregrine was a 21-litre (1,300 cu in) Dry weight 1,140 lb (517 kg)
• Length: 73.6 in (1,869 mm) • Width: 27.1 in (688 mm)
• Height: 41.0 in (1,041 mm) • Dry weight: 1,140 lb (517 kg)

R-R Merlin 61 of 27-litre (1,650 cu in)
• Length: 88.7 in (225 cm) • Width: 30.8 in (78 cm)
• Height: 40 in (102 cm) • Dry weight: 1,640 lb (744 kg)

The Hs129 was originally designed to have the small V12 Argus As 410 engine, the Gnome-Rhône 14M was about as big an engine this little twin engine aircraft you are going to get without getting a new plane.

To me an interesting option would have been the Fw187 with Gnome-Rhône 14N in the role of the Hs187, The engine was available after the fall of France and at 620 kg (1,370 lb) a much more viable option to the Ju210’s it got lumbered with. The BMW801 1,012 kg (2,226 lb) was just stretching it to far. Fighter like performance would have reduced the vulnerability even with Heavy armour Gnome-Rhône 14N with 1164hp should be able to Produced 350 plus Mph at Medium altitudes
 
Well you are talking about a new aircraft The Gnome-Rhône 14M was a very small compact engine. Some of the talk on the forums about re-engine aircraft often do not take into account of this like size and the effort of reengineering an aircraft to scale up to the engines
The Hs129 used the tiny Gnome-Rhône 14M because it was a small aircraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnome-Rhône_14M
Length: 9.75 m(32ft) • Wingspan: 14.20 m(46 ft 7 in) • Height: 3.25 m(10 ft 8 in)
You are basically looking at a new aircraft to get larger engine options

This goes for other re-engines options I have seen mentioned Often. Like the Merlin replacing the Peregrine in the Westland Whirlwind
R-R Peregrine was a 21-litre (1,300 cu in) Dry weight 1,140 lb (517 kg)
• Length: 73.6 in (1,869 mm) • Width: 27.1 in (688 mm)
• Height: 41.0 in (1,041 mm) • Dry weight: 1,140 lb (517 kg)

R-R Merlin 61 of 27-litre (1,650 cu in)
• Length: 88.7 in (225 cm) • Width: 30.8 in (78 cm)
• Height: 40 in (102 cm) • Dry weight: 1,640 lb (744 kg)

The Hs129 was originally designed to have the small V12 Argus As 410 engine, the Gnome-Rhône 14M was about as big an engine this little twin engine aircraft you are going to get without getting a new plane.

To me an interesting option would have been the Fw187 with Gnome-Rhône 14N in the role of the Hs187, The engine was available after the fall of France and at 620 kg (1,370 lb) a much more viable option to the Ju210’s it got lumbered with. The BMW801 1,012 kg (2,226 lb) was just stretching it to far. Fighter like performance would have reduced the vulnerability even with Heavy armour Gnome-Rhône 14N with 1164hp should be able to Produced 350 plus Mph at Medium altitudes

The Whirlwind engine switch would have required a longer wing inboard of the engine to allow for additional radiator capacity and larger propeller diameter. The Falke also has interference problems with the standard French propeller clearance, but since it doesn't have the coolant problem, a broad-chord VDM of reduced diameter is the likely solution.
 
Falke with Gnome-Rhone 14N and BK 3.7.

falkegnomerhone.png
 

Deleted member 1487

Well you are talking about a new aircraft The Gnome-Rhône 14M was a very small compact engine. Some of the talk on the forums about re-engine aircraft often do not take into account of this like size and the effort of reengineering an aircraft to scale up to the engines

Yes, I am talking about a Hs129 built around the BMW132 from beginning.
 
Gnome-Rhone 14M engine 904 lb dry
37" diameter
700 hp

Gnome-Rhone 14N 1370 lb dry
50.8 " diam.
1,000 hp

BMW 132 1,157 lb dry
54.33 " diam
880 hp.
The BMW is a single row 9 cyl, the G-R engines are both 14 cyl 2-row.

You would end up with a larger aircraft with the same performance. Smaller aircraft are harder targets. The Falke is already sized for the G-R 14N. The Hs-129 sized for the 14N would look like the Falke. Bolt on some armor plate.

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Paul MacQ

Donor
The Whirlwind engine switch would have required a longer wing inboard of the engine to allow for additional radiator capacity and larger propeller diameter. The Falke also has interference problems with the standard French propeller clearance, but since it doesn't have the coolant problem, a broad-chord VDM of reduced diameter is the likely solution.

For that reason I would liked to have seen the Whirlwind with the little Bristol Taurus. the Gloster F.9/37 was able to get 30mph faster on Taurus rather than Rolls-Royce Peregrine so might have been a great match up.

Taurus Diameter: 46.25 in (1,175 mm) Dry weight: 1,301 lb (590 kg)

BTW very nice picture Leo
 
For that reason I would liked to have seen the Whirlwind with the little Bristol Taurus. the Gloster F.9/37 was able to get 30mph faster on Taurus rather than Rolls-Royce Peregrine so might have been a great match up.

Taurus Diameter: 46.25 in (1,175 mm) Dry weight: 1,301 lb (590 kg)

BTW very nice picture Leo

Thank you, snuthin'. That's another thread, and I'm heavily opinionated.
 
FW-187 with Gnome-Rhone 14N

This combination looks very clean and do able. With DB600's the Falke could do 395mph in about 1939. Given that these were 1000 hp engines and the GR 14N was putting out over 1100 hp with clean cowling and no radiators with maybe 5mm of Armor you would have something like 380 mph and very nimble and potent.
 
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