Henry VIII Stays with Catherine What Happens to England's Golden Age

Alex Zetsu

Suppose Henry VIII stays with Catherine and doesn't try to get in Anne Boleyn's pants. And while we're at it, why not just get rid of all his sexual interactions with mistresses (they can still be friends).

If Mary marries a Hapsburg, what happens to England after that?

In OTL, the Elizabethan Era was England's rise to power. In TTL, there would be no Spanish Armanda failed invasion, so wouldn't England end up not making a massive navy and colonial empire? Those two were a direct response to Spain, and in this case England would be one of Spain's allies. Which leads to an odd conclusion that being at war made Elizabeth's England better.
 
WilliamOfOckham

WilliamOfOckham

There’s a great unanswerable question at the heart of this time-honoured PoD, which is: how would the religious situation in England have evolved if the Annulment had never taken place? The vast majority of the English people were contentedly - if not “staunchly” - Catholic at the time, and Lutheranism was still viewed as an odd but not overly-offensive German phenomenon. With Henry’s break from Rome taken out of the picture, we usually assume that this situation would have continued; but I think there’s something to be said for the idea that the Reformation answered material changes in Early Modern Northern Europe, changes that Catholicism would only come close to answering with the Counter-Reformation - and a good deal of force to back it up. In the meantime, I’d expect Protestantism, or some English adaption thereof, to take hold in the Southeast just like it took hold in France, with similarly disastrous social consequences. Maybe without decades of humiliation and neglect behind her, Mary would have been less zealous and inept, but on the other hand the English (specifically Parliamentary) paranoia of Continental oppression would ensure that she and her Habsburg husband have plenty of headaches to deal with anyway. She and her successors might manage to ride the wave like the Austrians did, or they might be doomed to a brutal civil war. In any case, the idyllic picture of a Catholic England bumbling toward the same Britannic destiny, only with Spain in tow, is surely a naïve one.

As for the military question - the Spanish Armada more proved that the English naval strategy was the right one than formed the English naval strategy itself. On the other hand, I don’t know whether any decisive naval battle would have taken place for a long, long time if Spain and England were allies, considering the two essentially divided the waves between them (note the Netherlands are going to be changed massively through this PoD). In terms of sea power alone, this is probably going to wank Spain in the short term and doom it to a very rude awakening - maybe at the hands of the French, or the Dutch if they manage to survive as a real power - in the long term.
 
Last edited:

Alex Zetsu

WilliamOfOckham said:
the English (specifically Parliamentary) paranoia of Continental oppression would ensure that she and her Habsburg husband have plenty of headaches to deal with anyway. She and her successors might manage to ride the wave like the Austrians did, or they might be doomed to a brutal civil war. In any case, the idyllic picture of a Catholic England bumbling toward the same Britannic destiny, only with Spain in tow, is surely a naïve one.
Click to expand...

I do think it would be not too difficult (though far from guaranteed) to ride out the Parliamentary opposition, but I do agree it seems unlikely to be bumbling toward the same Britannic destiny only with Spain in tow. It seems to me that this England is likely going to end up as just another European kingdom. When it comes to decide if overseas territory X should be Spanish or English, since the husband's side of the family is from Spain, the division line is likely going to be in favor of spain, ocne again (short term) wanking spain.
 

Viriato

It is hard to say but during Henry VIII's reign England's maritime industry declined a great deal so that by around Henry VIII's death most foreign trade was in the hands of foreigners. Foreign merchants based in London were mostly Flemish, Germans and Venetians, whom bought up English woollens to export. By the 1540s Hanseatic merchants controlled most of the Baltic Trade and around the same time English ships had nearly disappeared from the Mediterranean. Most English trade passed almost exclusively through Antwerp, but once Antwerp was plagued by troubles in the 1570s English shipping made a huge comeback.

In 1521, Sebastian Cabot attempted to make another voyage to America and could not gain support in London so he abandoned his plans. It seems that in Bristol there was more of an appetite for shipping, but the merchants there lacked the capital found in the city of London. So it seems that during this time there was little interest on the part in overseas exploration.

The question is which Habsburg does Mary marry? She might forbid her subjects to trade with certain areas. Edward IV and later Elizabeth I forbade her subjects to trade with the Indies (before the Iberian Union). The question is how does this affect the Netherlands, if there is a revolt in Antwerp that destroys the city's infrastructure, then English shipping will rebound as it did. In the 1575 to 1585 England's shipping more than doubled as merchants increasingly began to trade further afield. Also, are Mary's successors staunch Catholic Habsburgs whom support the other branches against France? Without English support, the Dutch revolt might never get off the ground.

Additionally, presuming Henry VIII does not change religions, England would remain Catholic and this will have a major effect on the future of the kingdom. Literacy in England was very low before the reformation and even around one-third of the gentry and over 90% of labourers. It seems prior to establishing the Church of England the few interested in Protestantism were among the upper class, and even these were much in the minority. England was an overwhelmingly agrarian country, and the rise of Protestantism in Europe allowed it to take in a great number of refugees from the Netherlands and later France, most of whom were merchants and craftsmen. One could argue that they coupled with the rise in literacy due to the Reformation in large part helped spurn England's early industrialisation.
 

isabella

Totally ASB. The only way in which Henry will stay with Catherine is if they had a son. Henry was thinking to have his wedding to Catherine annulled well before meeting Anne Boleyn. He wanted a son more than anything else.
And a Mary who is heiress of her father will NOT marry any Habsburg as Henry would NOT gift them his kingdom.
Either Henry take the offer of the Pope of marrying Mary to gopher half-brother Henry Fitzroy or will try to legitimize Fitzroy and making him as heir in place of Mary OR will marry Mary to either of his own nephew (most likely James V of Scotland or if his hate for the Scottish is too big there is always Henry Brandon, snot of his favorite sister and his best friend)
 
Last edited:

Alex Zetsu

isabella said:
Totally ASB. The only way in which Henry will stay with Catherine is if they had a son.
Click to expand...

Eh, I believe one's childhood can affect one's personality. It's not like EVERY noble and royal who was sonless acted like Henry (even through they almost certainly would have liked to had one) and I refuse to believe that "must have son to avoid civil war" was determined by Henry VIII's genes. Basically the POD would have had to happened before Henry's marriage but everything would "look right" to history before his mistresses since historians usually don't put down every single detail of a child's life, not even for princes.
 

isabella

Alex Zetsu said:
Eh, I believe one's childhood can affect one's personality. It's not like EVERY noble and royal who was sonless acted like Henry (even through they almost certainly would have liked to had one) and I refuse to believe that "must have son to avoid civil war" was determined by Henry VIII's genes. Basically the POD would have had to happened before Henry's marriage but everything would "look right" to history before his mistresses since historians usually don't put down every single detail of a child's life, not even for princes.
Click to expand...
With the history of England BEFORE Henry’s birth and the instability of the Tudor monarchy that thinking of Henry was inevitable. Remember who Catherine’s own parents were so worried about England‘s stability who they refuted to send their daughter there if Henry VII do not executed two powerless men who were already in captivity in the Tower of London...
 

Alex Zetsu

The question is which Habsburg does Mary marry?
Click to expand...

I guess that's going to make a difference what happens next. I'm happy to hear all ideas and what they might entail before I pick one. Or some people might agree with @isabella and say his OTL thinking is inevitable by circumstances that happened before he was even born, I'm fine if people think that way too.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Alex Zetsu said:
I guess that's going to make a difference what happens next. I'm happy to hear all ideas and what they might entail before I pick one. Or some people might agree with @isabella and say his OTL thinking is inevitable by circumstances that happened before he was even born, I'm fine if people think that way too.
Click to expand...
Philip of Spain is the most sensible one, though if alternatives are being considered James or Scotland is usually a safe bet to protect the northern frontier
 

Alex Zetsu

dragonstoned said:
Philip would a little too young for Mary, James is her most realistic option.
Click to expand...

James is a very likely option but isn't a Hapsburg. I didn't actually decide which Hapsburg yet (this makes a difference!). Phillip is young and OTL circumstances will not be repeated making it unlikely, but Henry VIII did marry an older woman and the marriage was a happy one for the first decade, so I don't think Phillip is completely off the table. I'm not entirely sure how Isabelle of Castile approved Katherine's marriage in the first place, but Phillip's family can think the same way. Not sure Phillip is the most likely Hapsburg to marry Mary though
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Alex Zetsu said:
James is a very likely option but isn't a Hapsburg. I didn't actually decide which Hapsburg yet (this makes a difference!). Phillip is young and OTL circumstances will not be repeated making it unlikely, but Henry VIII did marry an older woman and the marriage was a happy one for the first decade, so I don't think Phillip is completely off the table. I'm not entirely sure how Isabelle of Castile approved Katherine's marriage in the first place, but Phillip's family can think the same way. Not sure Phillip is the most likely Hapsburg to marry Mary though
Click to expand...
I’m not sure who’d be offered then. Ferdinando sons would be just as young as Charles. And Charles refused to marry again after his wife died
 

Alex Zetsu

VVD0D95 said:
I’m not sure who’d be offered then. Ferdinando sons would be just as young as Charles. And Charles refused to marry again after his wife died
Click to expand...

Good point... no other Hapsburgs left. So while Phillip is unlikely as other people mentioned (although not as unlikely as they think given Henry VIII himself), if its a Hapsburg it's probably him
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Alex Zetsu said:
Good point... no other Hapsburgs left. So while Phillip is unlikely as other people mentioned (although not as unlikely as they think given Henry VIII himself), if its a Hapsburg it's probably him
Click to expand...
Indeed unless one of Charles other sons by Isabella survive then they’d probably marry Mary. Is it necessary for her to marry a Habsburg?
 

isabella

VVD0D95 said:
Indeed unless one of Charles other sons by Isabella survive then they’d probably marry Mary. Is it necessary for her to marry a Habsburg?
Click to expand...
They would be younger than Philip...

Alex Zetsu said:
James is a very likely option but isn't a Hapsburg. I didn't actually decide which Hapsburg yet (this makes a difference!). Phillip is young and OTL circumstances will not be repeated making it unlikely, but Henry VIII did marry an older woman and the marriage was a happy one for the first decade, so I don't think Phillip is completely off the table. I'm not entirely sure how Isabelle of Castile approved Katherine's marriage in the first place, but Phillip's family can think the same way. Not sure Phillip is the most likely Hapsburg to marry Mary though
Click to expand...
Catherine was promised to Henry’s older brother and arrived in England as bride for him. Then, after Arthur’s death, Henry VII was more-or-less forced by Ferdinand and Isabella to an engagement between his new heir and Catherine (Henry VII would have liked better marrying Catherine himself after becoming widowed). After Isabella’s death, Henry VII had broken that betrothal and never thinked again to a wedding between Catherine and Henry, who was engaged to Eleanor of Austria and would have married her if Henry VII had lived another two or three years
 

Alex Zetsu

I think my confusion was that I mistakenly thought Charles and Ferdinand had another brother and therefore more Hapsburgs. Which in hindsight, not only was wrong still wouldn't make any more Hapsburgs of Phillip II's generation older than him, so he'd still be the best Hapsburg candidate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top