Henry VIII doesn't break with Rome; what does he do instead?

Let's say that Thomas Moore manages to come up with some really persuasive argument and convince Henry VIII not to break from the Catholic Church. What would Henry do instead? Obviously the succession would still be an issue, so how would he seek to resolve it? And what would the results be?
 
Somebody's wife is about to have a tragic and totally accidental fall down a flight of stairs. Or Henry simply throws enough money at the problem to make his wife decide she's better off somewhere single and far away.

Or more interestingly Henry Fitzroy is named the heir. Or perhaps he's not and with the lack of an official heir he's simply the best candidate. Either way, he was already a duke, was raised in court with extensive experience in public office, and was nearly named king of Ireland. I think that without another male heir he'd be extremely hard to pass over.
 
To understand the period you have to grasp that everyone is desperate to avoid a repetition of the Wars of the Roses. It's not just Henry wants a heir of his body, Parliament and the Court want someone with a clear uncontested claim just as much as Henry does.
 
To understand the period you have to grasp that everyone is desperate to avoid a repetition of the Wars of the Roses. It's not just Henry wants a heir of his body, Parliament and the Court want someone with a clear uncontested claim just as much as Henry does.

Yeah, it's only in hindsight that the Wars of the Roses are seen as ending with Bosworth. As late as 1514, a Yorkist claimant (Richard de la Pole) raised an army of around 12k mercenaries for an invasion of England, with French support. Nothing came of it, since France made peace with England and withdrew their support of Richard before there was an opportunity for Richard to cross the channel.
 
I can see Catherine dying suddenly and tragically....

Why is there a need to make a lot of noise out of a completely natural death? Well, of course falling from the stairs and breaking the neck would be a sudden death and of course it would be a tragic event. OTOH, with the contemporary medicine consequences of catching the cold could be quite lethal, especially if the loving husband orders the doctors to use all their skills to cure her. To survive combination of the extensive bleeding and massive enemas she should be healthy as a horse. And if they add some more sophisticated methods even that would not help.
 
Let's say that Thomas Moore manages to come up with some really persuasive argument and convince Henry VIII not to break from the Catholic Church. What would Henry do instead? Obviously the succession would still be an issue, so how would he seek to resolve it? And what would the results be?

As someone already pointed out, more women dying. Basically go through more wives until someone, any one can push off a male heir. A living Henry IX (not the other one) for Henry VIII and various others to feel safe from any sort of succession disputes.
 
To understand the period you have to grasp that everyone is desperate to avoid a repetition of the Wars of the Roses. It's not just Henry wants a heir of his body, Parliament and the Court want someone with a clear uncontested claim just as much as Henry does.

I don't think Parliament gives a damn how clear succession is as long as none of the alternatives try to treat the next heir the way Henry VI was treated.

Besides the War of the Roses, our other succession war is the Anarchy. The Plantagenets, the Lancasters, the Tudors, (skip a few) and finally the Windsors derive their throne from Empress Matilda. So female succession is obviously correct since if it wasn't Henry wouldn't be king.

Henry VII told young Henry about the War of the Roses and how it was completely crap for everyone, especially the Lancasters (the good guys to them, otherwise no Tudor).
"Yeah, the War of the Roses sucked. So make sure that never happens. If possible get a legitimate son. If you can't and Edmund is incapable or childless, then make sure to have a capable son in law, preferably a nice English one who has local support to help his wife" I guess if Henry doesn't break with Rome, he's going for third best option instead of first best.
 
To understand the period you have to grasp that everyone is desperate to avoid a repetition of the Wars of the Roses. It's not just Henry wants a heir of his body, Parliament and the Court want someone with a clear uncontested claim just as much as Henry does.

"Will no one rid me of this turbulent wife!?"
 
The highly religious and much beloved (by the people at larger) English Queen who happens to be the Emperor's aunt conveniently falls down a flight of stairs or a fatal 'natural' incident in the midst of a dispute over whether or not she'll 'retire' to a convent after an annulment admitting she's been committing adultery for 20-odd years. Gee, why didn't H8 think of this one? Probably because he realized that it was an idea that could easily be applied to his initially very reluctant non-mistress mistress and queen-elect Lady Anne Boleyn and didn't want to give anyone of Anne's enemies or his wife's relatives/backers any ideas along that line.

Parliament just wanted an acceptable husband for Princess Mary, heiress presumptive. Only H8 was thinking with the 'little head' and couldn't see that (the little head only involved making Mary). If H8 had spent as much time trying to find a competent, strong husband for Mary (with the marriage contract tying his hands from becoming King and allowing Parliament to enforce the 'Prince Consort' not 'King Consort'), we wouldn't have had "Bloody Mary" and the RC prejudice that followed her rule.

As for the court @ShortsBelfast references, those were the people around the King and Queen and caused as much problems for the crown as they helped it. (Wolsey, Cromwell, as well as Norfolk forever pushing a niece forward, Buckingham's ambitions, the Seymours - to name a few - were all jockeying for position to get the king's ear. H8 seemed to be easily influenced - hence his refusal to see anyone once he'd condemned him/her.)

But to answer the OP's title query: H8 doesn't marry Anne Boleyn until Katherine of Aragon dies. Possibly as OTL in 1536, possibly a little longer since if he's not breaking with Rome, he's still treating Katherine as Queen, easing her physical and mental stresses. She might not die for another year or two. Anne might not want to wait; she might well enter a convent to avoid him completely or elope with someone (possibly abroad to avoid trouble for her choice of spouse - her father's position might well allow this).
 
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There was almost nothing that would have persuaded Henry to halt annulment proceedings and reconcile himself to remaining tied to Catherine of Aragon.
Only two things could have prevented him from pursuing the matter - Catherine's death or willingness to agree to withdraw to a religious institution.
Even Anne's death might not have prevented him from pursuing an annulment as it would mean him admitting he was mistaken in his view of the legality of his first marriage which is unlikely - so it would have dragged on until Catherine died or Rome changed its mind.
On the succession the issue wasn't just about the desire for a male heir but was driven by Henry's passion for Anne - even those close to the King and many of his critics at the period believed his desire for her was the driving force behind his decisions.
He remained with Catherine long after it was unlikely she would produce more issue - it was Anne's arrival that pushed him to demand the marriage be declared void - so you could perhaps argue that Henry in 1525 was reconciled that Mary might well succeed him though it is likely given his reluctance to name her Princess of Wales as was suggested at one point that he perhaps expected to outlive Catherine and remarry at some point - certainly Mary's frequent betrothals were aimed at given her a powerful husband either Spain or France - which would have helped ensure she could hold her throne in case of rebellion.

The reformation appealed to Henry's ego and view of his kingship in terms of ultimate power resting with the monarch rather than the church but he was certainly not attracted to any other real elements of Lutheranism - the break was purely designed to bolster his own political power and enable him to have his first marriage declared void.
 
I doubt Henry would try killing Catherine -- if he was willing to stoop to such methods, why not just do so IOTL, instead of going through a years-long legal battle and major religious upheaval?

To understand the period you have to grasp that everyone is desperate to avoid a repetition of the Wars of the Roses. It's not just Henry wants a heir of his body, Parliament and the Court want someone with a clear uncontested claim just as much as Henry does.

Is that the case? I was under the impression that Catherine was very popular with the country at large, which doesn't really suggest that they were unhappy or worried about her not producing a boy.

"Yeah, the War of the Roses sucked. So make sure that never happens. If possible get a legitimate son. If you can't and Edmund is incapable or childless, then make sure to have a capable son in law, preferably a nice English one who has local support to help his wife" I guess if Henry doesn't break with Rome, he's going for third best option instead of first best.

A good husband for Mary certainly sounds like a sensible idea. Anybody got any ideas for who that might be? Could Henry try and marry her off to the man with the strongest non-Tudor claim to the throne, in order to neutralise the threat of a dynastic crisis?

Even Anne's death might not have prevented him from pursuing an annulment as it would mean him admitting he was mistaken in his view of the legality of his first marriage which is unlikely - so it would have dragged on until Catherine died or Rome changed its mind.

I think that depends on how soon Henry gets dissuaded -- if he's just started mulling it over and Thomas Moore is one of the very first people he mentions it to, there would be no loss of face in abandoning the idea, since practically nobody would know that he was ever evening questioning the validity of his marriage in the first place.
 
good husband for Mary certainly sounds like a sensible idea. Anybody got any ideas for who that might be? Could Henry try and marry her off to the man with the strongest non-Tudor claim to the throne, in order to neutralise the threat of a dynastic crisis?

IIRC there were some plans that involved the deposition of the Tudors and marriage to a Tudor girl (usually Mary the Elder or Mary the Younger). Buckingham had the idea of marrying his son/first grandson to Mary the Younger. Richard de la Pole would marry Dorothea of Denmark and their eldest son would wed Mary the Younger. Or de la Pole would marry the widowed Mary the Elder. But then Brandon showed up and he was a less-threatening candidate by François' standards
 
Is that the case? I was under the impression that Catherine was very popular with the country at large, which doesn't really suggest that they were unhappy or worried about her not producing a boy.
Catherine was devout and charitable and widely liked and respected and, if Henry had adopted an alternate strategy of getting Mary married to someone who themselves had a strong claim to the English throne, the country would have gone along with that. However there was a very real fear of a weak or contested claim. Nobody wanted a repetition of the Wars of the Roses. Or worse with a wealthy and powerful united Spain at loggerheads with France this time round. Cardinal Wolsey was involved in the attempt to gain a divorce/annulment and ultimately every faction at the Court went along with it. Henry's anxiety for a legitimate male heir was shared by the country at large which is why essentially he got away with changing his nation's religion and burning through a succession of wives. He was perceived as acting in the national interest.
 
Henry's anxiety for a legitimate male heir was shared by the country at large which is why essentially he got away with changing his nation's religion and burning through a succession of wives. He was perceived as acting in the national interest.

I don't know about that; the Pilgrimage of Grace, probably the biggest of all the Tudor rebellions, was a reaction to Henry's religious reforms. It was so strong that Henry didn't feel able to fight it, and instead pretended to give in before arresting and executing the ringleaders after the rebels disbanded.
 
True but the Henrician Catholics were more concerned about the loss of the Mass than the breach with the Pope or Henry's divorce
 

Kaze

Banned
Henry wants a new wife one way or the other. Either he gets the divorce or he breaks with the Church. The only other option that could be on the table would be Catherine of Aragon "falls down a flight of stairs" and after a period of morning, Henry remarries. Henry refused the other option - he liked Catherine, sending his physicians to her when sick.

The other option is the Church legitimizes all his bastards.
 
In a previous post about Catherine being killed, I came up with a scenario in which Anne Boleyn (ambitious lady in waiting that wants to be Queen) either have some French maid poison Queen Catherine or have a French bowman kill her from a building at a public event. Wosley as Lord Chancellor would have knowledge of the plot, but looks the other way for reasons of his own (he would also have the means to keep Henry VIII in the dark and also to provide the cover up afterwards). When the hit on Queen Catherine goes down, Henry VIII is genuinely shocked and enraged (both Anne Boleyn and Wosley kept the plot from him in order to keep his name clean) and have the assassin(s) executed after a good and proper show trial (dead assassins tell no tales). Henry VIII then waits until the heat from Queen Catherine’s assassination cools off before marrying Anne Boleyn (both her enemies and conspiracy theorists point to her as the mastermind behind the assassination. Oliver Stone in the movie Catherine of Aragon focuses the conspiracy theories surrounding Queen Catherine’s assassination).
 
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In a previous post about Catherine being killed, I came up with a scenario in which Anne Boleyn (ambitious lady in waiting that wants to be Queen) either have some French maid poison Queen Catherine or have a French bowman kill her from a building at a public event. Wosley as Lord Chancellor would have knowledge of the plot, but looks the other for reasons of his own (he would also have the means to keep Henry VIII in the dark and also to provide the cover up afterwards). When the hit on Queen Catherine goes down, Henry VIII is genuinely shocked and enraged (both Anne Boleyn and Wosley kept the plot from him in order to keep his name clean) and have the assassin(s) executed after a good and proper show trial (dead assassins tell no tales). Henry VIII then waits until the heat from Queen Catherine’s assassination cools off before marrying Anne Boleyn (both her enemies and conspiracy theorists point to her as the mastermind behind the assassination. Oliver Stone in the movie Catherine of Aragon focuses the conspiracy theories surrounding Queen Catherine’s assassination).

Anne and Wolsey working together - now there's something I didn't see coming. Anne (or rather several others wanted Wolsey gone - stripped of his titles was good, imprisoned or dead was better). Wolsey was the one who had broken up Anne and Percy. Why would he suddenly turn a blind eye to her, when he knows she's the broom that Norfolk is using to sweep him out of office. If anything, if he knows of Anne's complicity, he'll get his proof together, and go to Henry and say "I told you she was bad news". Henry, being delusional will pooh-pooh Wolsey, and at first dismiss it as rumours by Anne's naysayers at court. However, if he wants to cause a scandal, he'll still wed his wife's murderess. Otherwise Anne gets married off into Ireland - or Percy if Henry's feeling generous - at best, and banished to a nunnery at worst
 
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