Henry VIII catches the sweating sickness in 1528

Indeed. But we also need to consider how these separate heirs to each throne interact with the new Stuart(-Tudor) dynasty; especially as their marriages will require royal (English and Scottish) assent.

And tbh judging how small both James and Mary's progeny OTL were I can't see them having more than 1 child survive childhood, so their other respective heirs' activities will be circumscribed.

...

Umm... James V had very few legitimate children, true--but the guy left a small horde of bastards around.
 

VT45

Banned
...

Umm... James V had very few legitimate children, true--but the guy left a small horde of bastards around.

But I think the whole thing hinges on Mary's ability to conceive. Which, if OTL shows us anything, isn't all that reliable.
 
But I think the whole thing hinges on Mary's ability to conceive. Which, if OTL shows us anything, isn't all that reliable.

Except that you've gotten rid of two of the likely factors in that--her fairly advanced age, and her stomach cancer. So there's a pretty good chance she'll have children. How healthy those children will be, and whether they will survive into adulthood is another story.
 
How much power would James V hold as Mary's husband? Assuming that Henry VIII dies in 1528, who would become the powerful nobles during the regency of Catherine? Would Thomas Wolsey keep his power?
 
If James V had married Mary, he would probably have to agree a marriage treaty similar to the one Philip II of Spain signed when he married Mary in OTL. James would enjoy her titles for as long as the marriage lasted, all acts of Parliaments would be dated with both their names, and Parliament would be called under the joint authority of the couple. If Henry VIII dies in 1528, then any regency council would surely be composed of the Duke of Norfolk, the Duke of Suffolk, Cardinal Wolsey, and Thomas More. Wolsey will probably live longer in this scenario. Since Wolsey had a hand in the early education of Mary, I suspect she would use him as both an advisor and as a counterweight to the other members of the regency council. In 1525, Henry VIII made his natural son Duke of Richmond. Henry VIII granted Richmond numerous titles and offices, which gave Richmond an incredible base of power. If Richmond’s early death in OTL is avoided in this scenario, then his attitude toward James and Mary could determine how smooth their rule over England would be.
 

VT45

Banned
Except that you've gotten rid of two of the likely factors in that--her fairly advanced age, and her stomach cancer. So there's a pretty good chance she'll have children. How healthy those children will be, and whether they will survive into adulthood is another story.

Good point. So it's likely that not only will they have children, but also that at least one will be a son.
 
If James V had married Mary, he would probably have to agree a marriage treaty similar to the one Philip II of Spain signed when he married Mary in OTL. James would enjoy her titles for as long as the marriage lasted, all acts of Parliaments would be dated with both their names, and Parliament would be called under the joint authority of the couple.

Agreed. But I wonder if he would be as disliked by the English as Philip was.

If Henry VIII dies in 1528, then any regency council would surely be composed of the Duke of Norfolk, the Duke of Suffolk, Cardinal Wolsey, and Thomas More. Wolsey will probably live longer in this scenario. Since Wolsey had a hand in the early education of Mary, I suspect she would use him as both an advisor and as a counterweight to the other members of the regency council.

But at the time of ITTL Henry's death haven't Wolsey already started negotiations with the Pope regarding the annulment of the king's marriage with Catherine? Would the Dowager Queen accept to have him involved in the government of the Mary in this case?



In 1525, Henry VIII made his natural son Duke of Richmond. Henry VIII granted Richmond numerous titles and offices, which gave Richmond an incredible base of power. If Richmond’s early death in OTL is avoided in this scenario, then his attitude toward James and Mary could determine how smooth their rule over England would be.

That would be interesting indeed, especially if Richmond becomes Protestant. He would be a rallying point to those nobles who would be discontented with the Catholic policies of James and Mary.
 
I suspect James V would be more popular in England than Philip II was in OTL, if for no other reason than James working harder to establish the Stuart dynasty in England. For James, the throne of England would be a far greater prize than it was for Philip II. As for Cardinal Wosley, yes he had begun negotiations to annul Henry VIII’s marriage with Catherine. Catherine was an intelligent woman who would realize that Wosley probably did not have any personal problems with her. Wosley was carrying out the orders of his king. Besides, Catherine would be shrewd enough to realize the necessity of keeping a Lord Chancellor as effective as Wosley around to counterbalance the nobles on the regency council. As for Richmond, I can definitely see him as a force of opposition to the royal couple, but I can’t see him doing it as a Protestant. Keep in mind just how strong Catholicism was in OTL’s England in 1528. Look at all of the pro-Catholic rebellions that took place in England in OTL during the 1530’s. If Henry VIII dies in 1528, then England would remain Catholic for the foreseeable future. Both James and Mary were devout Catholics and would oppose any form of heresy forming in their kingdoms. I’m fairly confident that Richmond was raised a Catholic and if he lives longer in TTL, would remain one. However, that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t oppose the royal couple on other issues, such as foreign policy.
 
If James V had married Mary, he would probably have to agree a marriage treaty similar to the one Philip II of Spain signed when he married Mary in OTL. James would enjoy her titles for as long as the marriage lasted, all acts of Parliaments would be dated with both their names, and Parliament would be called under the joint authority of the couple. If Henry VIII dies in 1528, then any regency council would surely be composed of the Duke of Norfolk, the Duke of Suffolk, Cardinal Wolsey, and Thomas More. Wolsey will probably live longer in this scenario. Since Wolsey had a hand in the early education of Mary, I suspect she would use him as both an advisor and as a counterweight to the other members of the regency council. In 1525, Henry VIII made his natural son Duke of Richmond. Henry VIII granted Richmond numerous titles and offices, which gave Richmond an incredible base of power. If Richmond’s early death in OTL is avoided in this scenario, then his attitude toward James and Mary could determine how smooth their rule over England would be.


A marriage between Mary and James would be great...
 
A marriage between James and Mary would have offered many benefits to their respective kingdoms. The marriage would have given Mary a base of support from Scotland to combat any attempts to remove her from the English throne. With Henry VIII’s death in 1528, Catherine would in TTL need to maintain a stable environment until the regency ended in 1534. She could accomplish this by keeping Cardinal Wosley as Lord Chancellor until his death (he may live past 1530 in TTL) and then helping More succeed him to that post. With More as chancellor, Mary would have a faithful and talented servant helping her and James establish their reign. With Scotland an ally instead of an enemy, England could have solidified their control of both Wales and Ireland. In order to keep them busy :D, the Dukes of Richmond, Suffolk, and Norfolk might have been used to pacify both Wales and Ireland.

With Mary as queen, I suspect she would avoid the wars between Francis I and Charles V, in order to maintain the union between England and Scotland. James might sympathize with France but wouldn’t want to jeopardize his dynasty’s place on the English throne. As long as the balance of power between France and Spain didn’t tip too strongly in favor of one or the other, I can see the royal couple focusing on domestic issues (such as the nobles along both sides of the English-Scottish border). I could also see the couple negotiating some trade benefits from both France and Spain in exchange for possible alliances. Perhaps the couple could establish colonies in the Americas and take advantage of the constant wars between Spain and France to create an earlier version of OTL’s British Empire.
 
A marriage between James and Mary would have offered many benefits to their respective kingdoms. The marriage would have given Mary a base of support from Scotland to combat any attempts to remove her from the English throne. With Henry VIII’s death in 1528, Catherine would in TTL need to maintain a stable environment until the regency ended in 1534. She could accomplish this by keeping Cardinal Wosley as Lord Chancellor until his death (he may live past 1530 in TTL) and then helping More succeed him to that post. With More as chancellor, Mary would have a faithful and talented servant helping her and James establish their reign. With Scotland an ally instead of an enemy, England could have solidified their control of both Wales and Ireland. In order to keep them busy :D, the Dukes of Richmond, Suffolk, and Norfolk might have been used to pacify both Wales and Ireland.

With Mary as queen, I suspect she would avoid the wars between Francis I and Charles V, in order to maintain the union between England and Scotland. James might sympathize with France but wouldn’t want to jeopardize his dynasty’s place on the English throne. As long as the balance of power between France and Spain didn’t tip too strongly in favor of one or the other, I can see the royal couple focusing on domestic issues (such as the nobles along both sides of the English-Scottish border). I could also see the couple negotiating some trade benefits from both France and Spain in exchange for possible alliances. Perhaps the couple could establish colonies in the Americas and take advantage of the constant wars between Spain and France to create an earlier version of OTL’s British Empire.

You know, I have to come out and say it--all these are perfectly sensible things for James and Mary to do in this situation. And there is no guarantee that Mary and James will do ANY of them. Simply put, neither of them was noted for being clever. Their united monarchy--once it really gets going--is probably going to be internally focussed, and increasingly obsessed with rooting out Protestantism as time goes by. Now, while both England and Scotland are PROBABLY going to stay Catholic in this scenario, you're very likely to see a British "War of Religion" at some point, for about the same reasons that France had one. And the effects that will have...

Well, who knows?
 

VT45

Banned
What could happen is that they expel the Protestants, much like Spain did in the last century. Whether they send them to regions in Europe, or use them to found colonies in the Americas I'm not sure. Who knows? We might even see a British Inquisition.
 
In TTL, there could very well be a British Inquisition along the lines of what Isabella and Ferdinand did in Spain in OTL. It is important to keep in mind that the Catholic Monarchs used the Inquisition to hold power over all of the realms that comprised the Spanish monarchy, with little interference from anyone. I could easily see the pope granting Mary and James a papal bull giving them the power to establish tribunals in both England and Scotland. Based on Mary’s behavior in OTL, I believe she would embrace the idea of a British Inquisition with open arms.

Her devotion to Catholicism would also serve as an incentive to wipe out heresy in her kingdoms. A war against Protestants might serve to bind James and Mary together politically in a way similar to how the conquest of Granada gave vigor to the union of Castile and Aragon in OTL. Of course, any suppression of Protestants and/or Jews is going have a lot of negative repercussions for Britain’s future. As for a British War of Religion, that could easily result in dissolution of the personal union, with England and Scotland splitting over matters of faith.
 

VT45

Banned
Bump. One thing that is interesting in this scenario that we haven't touched on is the role of Parliament in all this. In the 16th century, it's still more or less a puppet of the royal family, but its role did gradually become more important. Will we see this same shift of power, or will it be more violent, like what happened in Spain, if the shift takes place at all?
 
Removing the English Reformation of the 1530s as this would do would indeed delay parliamentary change - Henry VIII and his three children relied heavily on Parliament inflicting religious change and enacting the Royal Supremacy - breaking that by removing the cause of the reformation will cause a major change in the nature of England's government during the 16th and 17th c.
Parliament wasn't so much as a royal puppet it had power and it exercised it but it is true that under the Tudor's its powers and influence grew considerably. It was controlleable and pretty malleable under a domineering and popular monarch such as Henry VIII and Elizabeth I but not under a weaker one as the Stuarts found to their cost.
 
Reason for "Bloody Mary"

In TTL, there could very well be a British Inquisition along the lines of what Isabella and Ferdinand did in Spain in OTL. It is important to keep in mind that the Catholic Monarchs used the Inquisition to hold power over all of the realms that comprised the Spanish monarchy, with little interference from anyone. I could easily see the pope granting Mary and James a papal bull giving them the power to establish tribunals in both England and Scotland. Based on Mary’s behavior in OTL, I believe she would embrace the idea of a British Inquisition with open arms.

Her devotion to Catholicism would also serve as an incentive to wipe out heresy in her kingdoms. A war against Protestants might serve to bind James and Mary together politically in a way similar to how the conquest of Granada gave vigor to the union of Castile and Aragon in OTL. Of course, any suppression of Protestants and/or Jews is going have a lot of negative repercussions for Britain’s future. As for a British War of Religion, that could easily result in dissolution of the personal union, with England and Scotland splitting over matters of faith.


But how much of that was due to her simply being "Super" Catholic, and how much of it was in direct response to and trying to undo the Reformation from under her father and brother.

If she thought that she had to go above and beyond to try and repair the damage of England being estranged from Rome, that might be the reason. On the other hand, if the Reformation didn't happen, or was a lot less than in OTL, then she might have been more relaxed. I am not saying that she would have a live and let live/ freedom of religion, but it was a lesser issue, and out of sight, out of mind, then it might be less of the Bloody Mary role.
 
OTL Catherine aleays cherished a hope of Mary marrying a son of Margaret Plantagenet, so that's an option. Alternatively, Courtenay was also quite popular and sifficently royal.
 
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