Henry VIII and his 9 daughters + 1 son

Ok, so about a year ago I posted a thread called Anne Boleyn has Multiple Daughters. This will be a continuation of that thread. It is taken for granted that Anne Boleyn dies when the triplets are born. So, here is the children.

Henry VIII m. Catherine of Aragon (1), Anne Boleyn (2), Jane Seymour (3) + 3 more

1a) Mary Tudor -1516-

2a) Elizabeth Tudor -1533-

2b) Margaret Tudor -1534-

2c) Anne Tudor -1534-

2d) Cecily Tudor -1535-

2e) Eleanor Tudor -1535-

2f) Matilda Tudor -1536-

2g) Joan Tudor -1536-

2h) Constance Tudor -1536-

3a) Edward Tudor -1537-

Who do they marry? How do they change history?
 
Ok, so about a year ago I posted a thread called Anne Boleyn has Multiple Daughters. This will be a continuation of that thread. It is taken for granted that Anne Boleyn dies when the triplets are born. So, here is the children.

Henry VIII m. Catherine of Aragon (1), Anne Boleyn (2), Jane Seymour (3) + 3 more

1a) Mary Tudor -1516-

2a) Elizabeth Tudor -1533-

2b) Margaret Tudor -1534-

2c) Anne Tudor -1534-

2d) Cecily Tudor -1535-

2e) Eleanor Tudor -1535-

2f) Matilda Tudor -1536-

2g) Joan Tudor -1536-

2h) Constance Tudor -1536-

3a) Edward Tudor -1537-

Who do they marry? How do they change history?

If I've understood it correctly, Anne Boleyn must have given birth to 7 daughters in the space of 3 years, with at least one set of twins and one set of triplets!

In the event this is all medically possible, if Anne is capable of giving birth to 7 children in 3 years, she is arguably the most fertile Queen Consort England has ever had, I think her position, while strained by repeated daughters, is not quite as it was where she struggled to give birth to a live child altogether.

Anne's downfall came after a number of miscarriages and stillbirths, it had been 3 years since Elizabeth's birth. In your timeline, Anne is almost constantly pregnant, my guess is that the King gives her the benefit of the doubt for at least a couple more years until the pregnancies slow down, so that removes Henry's marriage to Jane Seymour.
 
For one the Stewarts and Greys can very much forget any chance of a succession to the throne at any point in the immediate future.

Such an excess of female heirs might actually improve Mary's lot in life. Henry would be more inclined to restore her in blood/rank and marry her off abroad (Charles V, most likely) for political gain, confident in his own overwhelming fertility and reproductive prowess.

Once the Spanish alliance is no longer useful, or Henry tires of it, he might then flirt with the idea of French and Scottish marriages for his next daughters. I'm thinking betrothals, not marriages though.

As his reign progresses and his coffers grow emptier and emptier - a situation not helped by the pressing need to dress and house so many princesses adequately - it's most likely Henry will shy away from ratifying any marital schemes for most of these girls, given his inability to shell out a dowry suitable to their rank.

I can see a few marrying trusted English magnates though, especially if a fourth wife gives him a son in time for him to not feel paranoid about bringing white rose lords nearer the throne.
 
João

What about allowing Catherine of Aragon to have at least one more child

New List:
Henry VIII m. Catherine of Aragon 1509 -1532 {Died during miscarriage} (1), Anne Boleyn 1533-1536 {Died of postnatal complications} (2), Jane Seymour 1836-1837 {Died of postnatal complications} (3) + 3 more

1a) Mary Tudor - 18th February 1516- Philip II of Spain - Like she did in our time line, she marries Philip becoming queen consort of Habsburg Spain on his accession in 1556, spending most of her life in Spain.

1b) Catherine Tudor - 17th November 1518- (POD being born a week later) - Antoine de Bourbon, Duke of Vendôme - Her love of France, takes Catherine over to France, where she is taken into the court of King Francis I of France.
On 1542, she meets Antoine de Bourbon, and falls in love, they marry two years later. Their son, Henry, born in 1548, will succeed as King of France in 1589.

2a) Elizabeth Tudor -25th August 1533- (POD being born a week and a half early) - Ivan IV of Russia - Is sent to Russia, with Alliance and Trade diplomat, she talks to the son of Vasili III, Ivan, in 1546 she converts to Russian Orthordox but soon is able to convert, Russia to Catholism, being canonised in as Blessed Elizabeth.
With Ivan she is able to unite Russia into an Empire.

2b) Margaret Tudor - 11th May 1534- Eric Vasa of Sweden, Son of Gustav I of Sweden - Eric XIV was an intelligent and artistically skilled, as well as politically ambitious, early in his reign he showed signs of slight mental instability, but Margaret was able to keep his signs to only a few meaning Eric was able to be cured before his mental instability was able to become a full blown insanity leading to him being overthrown.

2c) Anne Tudor - 11th May 1534 - George Talbot, 6th Earl of Shrewsbury - The first of the daughters to marry an English peer, this is seen as patriotic and brings her closely into the royal court as Talbot becomes renowned as a military commander.

2d) Eleanor Tudor - 29 th January 1535 - Frederick II of Denmark - Henry VIII and Christian III of Denmark arranged this marriage when Christian III knew his death was near. The two royals were married in 1558, with the two young royals becoming King and Queen in 1559. Between 1560 - 1583, Eleanor gave birth to 16 children.

2e) Matilda Tudor - 7th September 1535 - Edward Seymour, 1st Earl of Hertford (1560-1582) - Matilda or "Little Lidia" was infatuated with yound Edward Seymour, however Seymour incures the displeasure of Edward VI for his clandestine affairs. She died with no issues.

2f) Constance Tudor - 19th May 1536 - João Manuel, Prince of Portugal - They married in 1551, sadly he dies 3 years later, with Constance giving birth to a posthumous son, named John (João) who in 1557, becomes King John IV of Portugal, with Constance as Regant until 1568, some call this "the 11 years of Constant Rule".

2g) Joan Tudor - 19th May 1536 - William Cecil, the future, 1st Baron Burghley - Joan felt the death of her mother was due to her, she wanted to enter into a nunnery but ended up travelling, when in 1542 , she came upon, The Honourable Society of Gray's Inn, where she met the widowed son of the inn keeper, William Cecil, who she meets and becomes a great friend, on 21 December 1544, she marries William, who later becomes a courtier and statesman for the last years of King Henry VIII's reign and later for King Edward VI and King Edward VII.

3a) Edward Tudor - 12th October 1537 - Joanna of Austria - Joanna is able to produce an heir with King Edward VI before he dies in 1560.

Who do they marry? How do they change history?
 
Mary is far too old to ever be considered as a bride for Philip in anything but exceptional circumstances.

No child of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon would have a "love of France", but even if ASB placed such a love in that princess's heart Rome would go Anglican before anyone let the girl go a-holidaying in France and picking a husband of her own accord.

No royal princess of England is being sent off to marry a schismatic Caesar in Russia, much less make her way to his court without anything being agreed beforehand to have a chat, convert to his schismatic creed and then convert to Catholicism. Bloody hell.

Patriotic? 16 children? A daughte of Anne Boleyn as Queen in Portugal? 11 years of Constant Rule? An Anglican princess wanting to join a nunnery then traveling and marrying a Cecil?!

At this point I can't help but suspect you of being an outright troll, Jonathan.
 

Kingpoleon

Banned
Edward would have more familial support and maybe last to 1568. That would be the year his son would turn eighteen. I wrote half a page of him marrying Joanna and then Elizabeth of Valois in response to the AHC of Henry VIII's bloodline, but it got deleted because it took too long. Joanna wouldn't be too popular with the English population though.
 
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Edward would more familial support and maybe last to 1568. That would be the year his son would turn eighteen. I wrote half a page of him marrying Joanna and then Elizabeth of Valois in response to the AHC of Henry VIII's bloodline, but it got deleted because it took too long. Joanna wouldn't be too popular with the English population though.

Familial support doesn't make you live longer.
 
Edward would more familial support and maybe last to 1568. That would be the year his son would turn eighteen. I wrote half a page of him marrying Joanna and then Elizabeth of Valois in response to the AHC of Henry VIII's bloodline, but it got deleted because it took too long. Joanna wouldn't be too popular with the English population though.

I would love to know more about that idea. Since everyone always seems to choose either Mary, Queen of Scots; Élisabeth de Valois or Lady Jane Grey as a suitable wife for a longer-lasting EVI.

However, I have seen Catherine Vasa swimming around as a bride for Edward, but that was in a scenario where Liz got married to Ivan the Terrible.

But I digress, how those daughters marry depends entirely on their standing at court in the later years of their father, AND if how he played around with Mary/Elizabeth's engagements OTL, I could see Harry croaking with none of them married.

Here's my take. Oldest daughter: Mary, she either gets shut away like Eleanor of Brittany until she's too old to have children of her own; or she gets married to someone unimportant/who will be loyal to England no matter what - i.e. Earl of Arran, duke of Chatellerault; earl of Devon; duke of Norfolk etc.

Then Anne Boleyn's children: Liz, Madge and perhaps Anne get married to foreign rulers (not necessarily kings). Liz can get a Habsburg/Valois as dictated by foreign policy; Madge can go be considered for a Portuguese/Savoyard/Lorrainer prince; while Anne can get a match elsewhere.

Cecily, Eleanor, Matilda, Joan and Constance I could see getting local/homegrown/Scots aristocrats as husbands, given the excessive dowries that would be required for their older sisters.
 
There'd be no reason to shut Mary away like Eleanor of Brittany, especially not once Edward VI himself married. The listed matches, however, are fairly implausible in my mind, since all of them are risky ones - the Earl of Arran being an obvious French puppet they could promote as a pretender (jure uxoris), a thorn in the side of Edward's reformed regime; the Earl of Devon being far too rich in Yorkist blood and too uncertain religion to marry the Catholic heiress of England safely; the duke of Norfolk being likewise too Catholic and too powerful to wed Mary "safely", in the eyes of the ruling regime.
 
Mary is far too old to ever be considered as a bride for Philip in anything but exceptional circumstances.
As a strong powerful catholic woman Mary 7 could help him rule Spain
No child of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon would have a "love of France", but even if ASB placed such a love in that princess's heart Rome would go Anglican before anyone let the girl go a-holidaying in France and picking a husband of her own accord.
After hearing about the land from her aunt Mary Queen of France, she goes over as a good will ambassador. She can fall in love and as long as she gets Henry 's permission it is allowed.

No royal princess of England is being sent off to marry a schismatic Caesar in Russia, much less make her way to his court without anything being agreed beforehand to have a chat, convert to his schismatic creed and then convert to Catholicism. Bloody hell.
Russia and England had been allying closer and closer together
Patriotic? 16 children? A daughte of Anne Boleyn as Queen in Portugal? 11 years of Constant Rule? An Anglican princess wanting to join a nunnery then traveling and marrying a Cecil?!

At this point I can't help but suspect you of being an outright troll, Jonathan.
I am not a troll I was simply answering a question of what will 9 royal princess in 100 do and marry

Sorry if you don't like my ideas and I am happy for you to suggest some.
 
Mary turned 30 in 1546.

No one of European importance is marrying Mary by the late 1540s or early 1550s, if she is not already Queen of England.

Edward's advisors are going to view Mary marrying an English Catholic nobleman as a hostile act. Could result in problems for both of them.

In seeking to marry Henry's daughters to France, Russia, Sweden, Denmark and Portugal, you are rather giving Henry more diplomatic credit than he or his diplomats deserve. There really is not a consistent foreign policy going on here.
 
Mary turned 30 in 1546.

No one of European importance is marrying Mary by the late 1540s or early 1550s, if she is not already Queen of England.

Edward's advisors are going to view Mary marrying an English Catholic nobleman as a hostile act. Could result in problems for both of them.

In seeking to marry Henry's daughters to France, Russia, Sweden, Denmark and Portugal, you are rather giving Henry more diplomatic credit than he or his diplomats deserve. There really is not a consistent foreign policy going on here.

It is only 11 years between them. If not Philip, how about Henry II of France. She is the daughter of Catherine of Aragon, making her cousin of Eleanor of France, Charles V and Ferdinand I (both emperors of the HRE, Isabella of Denmark, Mary of Hungary, King John III and Henry I of Portugal and Beatrice, Duchess of Savoy.

All the catholic sisters will be sent away as soon as possible.

And as you said above "advisors" make the decisions based on their views, with 9 daughters, 7 of them born and living, legitimitly inline to the throne, as Anne dies in child birth before being turned against, Henry's advisers will heavily perswade him to marry them off economically as well as politically.
 
It is only 11 years between them. If not Philip, how about Henry II of France. She is the daughter of Catherine of Aragon, making her cousin of Eleanor of France, Charles V and Ferdinand I (both emperors of the HRE, Isabella of Denmark, Mary of Hungary, King John III and Henry I of Portugal and Beatrice, Duchess of Savoy.

All the catholic sisters will be sent away as soon as possible.

And as you said above "advisors" make the decisions based on their views, with 9 daughters, 7 of them born and living, legitimitly inline to the throne, as Anne dies in child birth before being turned against, Henry's advisers will heavily perswade him to marry them off economically as well as politically.

11 years is a big age gap, especially when its the woman who is 11 years older. As I have stated elsewhere, Mary's mother and grandmother had their final pregnancies in their early 30s. Her best years for child bearing were in her teens and 20s. Mary has superb relations, however her primary role was to produce heirs.

I don't think your ideas for the husbands of all the girls are realistic at all. It seems you've just looked at wikipedia for age appropriate candidates and given no further consideration. You've probably shot yourself in the foot by being too ambitious, there's no need for Henry to have 9 surviving daughters, 4 or 5 would have been more interesting and achieveable.

Why would a Portugese prince want to marry a daughter of Anne Boleyn? What does he get out of it? A Portugese prince is going to look first for a Catholic bride, with a big dowry, the traditional option was a Habsburg princess, there were plenty of them around. Henri II of France had shown that marriage to a wealthy heiress, not strictly of royal birth was also a good option for a younger son.

Why would the son of the King of Denmark want to marry an English princess, when her sister had just married the Swedish's king's son? England's alliance with Sweden would be undone with an alliance with one of Sweden's main enemies, Denmark. The two are contradictory.

I think your idea about Russia is frankly ASB. You might as well imagine that one of Henry's daughters marry a Japanese or Indian ruler.

Why would Edward VI marry a Catholic? You do realise he was a Protestant fundamentalist right?

Your premise is messy and there is no consistency.
 

Kingpoleon

Banned
Familial support doesn't make you live longer.
However, the butterflies would probably erase his tuberculosis. We know he had a weak heart. However, familial support has been proven to keep blood pressure down. Also, he would gain more support, thus financial backing, and better and more doctors, from each of his half-sisters' husbands.
 
11 years is a big age gap, especially when its the woman who is 11 years older. As I have stated elsewhere, Mary's mother and grandmother had their final pregnancies in their early 30s. Her best years for child bearing were in her teens and 20s. Mary has superb relations, however her primary role was to produce heirs.

I don't think your ideas for the husbands of all the girls are realistic at all. It seems you've just looked at wikipedia for age appropriate candidates and given no further consideration. You've probably shot yourself in the foot by being too ambitious, there's no need for Henry to have 9 surviving daughters, 4 or 5 would have been more interesting and achieveable.
When I look for ideal husbands, I look by relations to the women, rank and yes age, as you said above they need to be close and I have never liked the idea of marrying women off to an old emperor who is near deaths door, just so he can try and produce one last heir while she can claim a downry as the widowed emperess.
As for ambitiousness, yes maybe i did keep 4 or 5 girls a live more then what was needed, but the thought of any daughter dying would kill my interest, where as i wondered what the 9 daughters of Henry would actually do.

Why would a Portugese prince want to marry a daughter of Anne Boleyn? What does he get out of it? A Portugese prince is going to look first for a Catholic bride, with a big dowry, the traditional option was a Habsburg princess, there were plenty of them around. Henri II of France had shown that marriage to a wealthy heiress, not strictly of royal birth was also a good option for a younger son.
Anne has just show she has child bearing hips, with 7 healthy children being born, any daughter of Anne, who not strictly of royal birth, was still the Queen of England.
The problem with a Habsburg princess is there closeness to Spain who REALLY is the sworn enemy of Portugal, not just the main.

Why would the son of the King of Denmark want to marry an English princess, when her sister had just married the Swedish's king's son? England's alliance with Sweden would be undone with an alliance with one of Sweden's main enemies, Denmark. The two are contradictory.
There has been peace between these two nations since 1521. A war, King Frederick I of Denmark was not a part of. These two kings would look for an alliance and with 9 daughters, England would be the place to go.

I think your idea about Russia is frankly ASB. You might as well imagine that one of Henry's daughters marry a Japanese or Indian ruler.
How is it ASB, Elizabeth and Ivan IOTL had great relations and at the time Russia was emergining as the new Empire with a large military and natural resources, Henry would be looking to trade more with Russia and the best was to secure a good trade flow is to have one of his daughters marry the Tsar. If the family has already changed from Catholic to CoE, one more religious convert wont make a difference.
While un-heard of Japan and India is stupid. If you are going to compare it to anything I would have at least thought you would have said the Turks or Barbers.

Why would Edward VI marry a Catholic? You do realise he was a Protestant fundamentalist right?
You can have a protestant married to a catholic, its not against the law, as long as both are happy, which I can see these two be with Anne being raise by her father, who was sympathetic to Lutheranism.

Your premise is messy and there is no consistency.
When is History ever consistent? It cant be predicted and is never simple.
 
However, the butterflies would probably erase his tuberculosis. We know he had a weak heart. However, familial support has been proven to keep blood pressure down. Also, he would gain more support, thus financial backing, and better and more doctors, from each of his half-sisters' husbands.

Also think of it like this Anne, he would also have 9 sisters to care for him while growing up and 4 being around the same age meaning they would be able to play with him, meaning he would be running about and being more active, building stronger muscles, heart and lungs meaning he may be able to fight of the TB better then he did this time.
 
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