Henry viii and Catherine parr have a son

Here's the first part of the Summary of the life of Catherine I of England, daughter of Henry VIII and Catherine Parr. I hope you like it.


Summary of the life of Queen Catherine I of England
Part 1


Catherine I (23 October, 1544 - 7 April, 1603) was Queen of England and Ireland from 6 July 1553 until her death, sometimes called Good Queen Kate, was born the third surviving daughter of Henry VIII and the only child by his last wife, Catherine Parr. Due to the King's advanced age (the then) Princess Catherine's birth was widely celebrated, despite disappointment that the 'Miracle Child' wasn't a boy.

Despite this, the Princesses birth was something to celebrate amidst the news of the King's failed invasion of France, and her half-siblings from her father's various marriages welcomed their new sister into the Tudor fold.

The Princess Catherine would be raised at court in the Palace of Whitehall even while her father confirmed her place in the Tudor succession, behind her half-brother, Prince Edward, but ahead of her older half-sisters, Mary Tudor and Elizabeth Tudor. Henry VIII also made a number of provisions for Catherine Parr after his death, most of which wouldn't be fully honored until the reign of her daughter. Overall the birth of Princess Catherine caused Henry VIII to become even more devoted to Catherine Parr than before, and despite his natural conservatism would increasingly take Catherine Parr's advice on a wide range of issues, most significantly the development of the Anglican Church, however there were no further pregnancies.

It was at age three, during 'The Rough Wooing', an Anglo-Scots War over a broken treaty promising the future Mary I as the bride for Edward VI, that Henry VIII's declining health failed him, killing him in 1547.

During Henry's decline there were expectations for a Regency to be established, and in the King's last will he established a Regency Council to rule on behalf of his son, Edward VI, to be headed by the boy-king's uncle, Edward Seymour (who would swiftly become Duke of Somerset).

Despite the King's Will, Catherine Parr quickly fell from her position of power at court, Edward's wife, Anne Seymour went so far as to successfully seize all of the jewelry that Henry VIII had given to Catherine Parr during her time as Queen. Having so swiftly fallen in her position, Catherine Parr retired to her personal estates, Chelsea Manor, though she would visit the Court often on account of her daughter, the heir to the realm.

In the reign of Edward VI, Princess Catherine would split her time between her brother's court and the home of her mother, the Queen-dowager, her education mostly overseen by a collection of very Protestant minded men at the direction of her mother. A scandal occurred in 1549 when Thomas Seymour, brother of Edward Seymour, and a previous suitor of Catherine Parr's attempt to actually marry the Queen-dowager, a proposal that was reject by Catherine Parr on the advice of friends. Thomas then tried to press a suit for the hand of either Mary Tudor or Elizabeth Tudor, even visiting Mary Tudor in her private apartments unannounced. The end results forced the Regency Council (at that point Edward's rubberstamp) to arrest Thomas who died under mysterious circumstances in the Tower of London a few months later during the official investigation into his activities.

It was this and Seymour's failure to win 'the Rough Wooing' that brought about his downfall as Regent and the rise of John Dudley as Regent (who would swiftly become Duke of Northumberland), a man who, while competent would make many enemies. The Duke of Northumberland continued Seymour's efforts to push the Anglican Church in a Reformed direction, while Mary Tudor became the focus of Catholic opposition to the English Protestant Reformation. John Dudley oversaw the education of Edward VI and supported Catherine Parr in her education of Princess Catherine, going so far as to pay Catherine her full allowance (as set out in Henry VIII's will).

However when Edward VI became ill with tuberculosis in 1553, John Dudley was faced with a crisis, as the King began to die the court (and England as a whole) became a swampy mess of intrigue as the issue of the Succession came to the forefront. As set out in the Will of Henry VIII and passed into law by Parliament, the official succession after Edward were his half-sisters, Princess Catherine, followed by their half-sisters Mary Tudor and Elizabeth Tudor.

While Catherine's legitimacy was not in doubt, she was only nine at the time, her other sisters were old, and Mary Tudor was the daughter of Catherine of Aragon, who if you accepted Henry's annulment of their marriage based on issues of possible consummation of her prior marriage to the King's brother was illegitimate and behind Princess Catherine in the succession.

If you didn't accept it, then she was Princess Mary of England, who as the eldest child came in the succession before her sister.

With Mary as a devout Catholic and the center of Catholic opposition to his regime, John Dudley attempted to have Mary arrested, however some of the guards sent to arrest her were sympathetic to the 'Old Religion' and helped her to escape to her estates. As Edward VI prepared to breath his last, an additional document was published in the King's name, reiterating the will of King Henry VIII and Princess Catherine and her mother were brought to London to prepare both for her ascension, and for war.

When Edward VI died, the stage was set for the Second War of the Roses...
 
Suggestions noted and implemented.

For consequences of the marriage - England is going to be drawn a bit more into the northern German religious scene; the Barther Bible (translated into Low German) was actually published in Pomerania around this time as just one example of the reforms going on. Amelia's brothers back in Pomerania are also going to try to persuade England to help them grow militarily with regards to Brandenburg and Saxony.
Intetesting so I suppose this means through funding and training
 
Intetesting so I suppose this means through funding and training

Yeah mainly. (Pomerania might also use some English help as a springboard into the colonial game if they get an inclination that way) The amount of funding or training depends on if Henry IX feels like taking a more interventionist approach in Europe.
 
Yeah mainly. (Pomerania might also use some English help as a springboard into the colonial game if they get an inclination that way) The amount of funding or training depends on if Henry IX feels like taking a more interventionist approach in Europe.
Intetesting, so would Amelia be a more interesting match than the usual Mary?
 
Intetesting, so would Amelia be a more interesting match than the usual Mary?
In my opinion yes, if only because marriage uniting the Tudors and Stuarts, while interesting, has happened in quite a few TLs by now (and also in OTL). Be nice to try less explored territory.
 
In my opinion yes, if only because marriage uniting the Tudors and Stuarts, while interesting, has happened in quite a few TLs by now (and also in OTL). Be nice to try less explored territory.

Alright that is true. Do you think a marriage might happen later on down the line between Tudor and Stuart, with a male Tudor etc?
 
Alright that is true. Do you think a marriage might happen later on down the line between Tudor and Stuart, with a male Tudor etc?
Pretty likely - English and Scottish royals married repeatedly OTL, no real reason to think the 1560s would be the last chance for that to happen.
 
Few points on the Henry IX scenario

Queen Consorts as widows in England have historically had no official sanctioned position - they were largely left to try and grab for power (such as Margaret of Anjou or Isabella of France) or simply gracefully retired from public life - the Queen dowagers that attempted to exercise power were usually reviled. Also in terms of the Protestant/Reformist viewpoint women in power was a real no-no - for Catherine Parr to attempt to grab power or even exercise authority beyond a traditional role would have been reviled.

It is exceptionally unlikely that Catherine would have been allowed complete control of her son - Royal children were usually given their own household at a relatively young age with a raft of staff to care for them - their parents weren't necessarily remote but there was an element of independence - so you would expect that shortly after his birth Henry VIII would have had the Duke of York placed in the household of the Prince of Wales if not his own - given the age difference it was likely that those appointed to tutor the Prince of Wales would move on to the education of his brother - the death of Henry VIII wouldn't necessarily have changed that though those appointed to care for him would probably have been replaced in 1547/8 with those that were loyal to the Seymour faction at court and in 1550/1 those too closely connected with the Seymours would have probably been replaced with others.

In terms of the royal council - Seymour exercised authority in excess of what Henry VIII's will had dictated - after his fall Northumberland was exceptionally careful in not assuming that kind of nominal position - there was in effect no regency from Seymour's removal from office - merely the council governing but effectively Northumberland dominating.

Assuming in 1553 Henry IX comes to the throne at nine - then the Northumberland and Grey's were on good terms - so a marriage to Jane Grey is not unlikely - at the urging of both sets of parents - the Queen Mother's view is irrelevant - however for the Grey's the match is a bit of a come down given Guildford is not Northumberland's heir.

Edward VI himself had strong opinions and a strong regard for his royal person as did both his half sisters - a low marriage would have disparaged his rank and status - there is no reason to suppose that his ttl brother would think otherwise - Mary Stuart had a similar view after being the Queen Consort of France she ideally wanted a similar ranking match and of course the throne she really wanted was England's so a match with Henry IX makes political sense - and sets up a nice religious conflict for all though Mary's catholicism was more habit than a profound devotion at this period and of course a Protestant match will please her brother and her protestant nobles.

Further down the line - any marriage will be heavily dependent on what the match brings England in terms of political influence, connections and dosh - it also depends on whether Henry IX is as willing to support protestants in open rebellion against their lawful sovereign (which was why Elizabeth was always weak on supporting the French and Dutch rebels) - however no English monarch had married into the minor German states (with the exception of Anne of Cleves and look how that turned out). The religious issue might have made things difficult in terms of the traditional French/Spanish matches but there are Protestant French royals around. Germany and the Scandinavian countries in the late 16th C don't really offer England a great deal in terms of political support (if Spain or France go to war with England) and most of them just aren't rich enough to forgive their lower status - it is only a good match if religion becomes the overriding concern (Edward VI we know was quite keen on marrying Elizabeth Valois after the Scots match failed she of course went on to become Philip II's third wife).

Lands were not usually directly associated with a peerage title particularly amongst the higher ranking ones - this is one of the things that always catches people out - titles don't always correspond with where a particular aristocrat holds lands or has their main home - even today the Duke of Devonshire's principal home is in Derbyshire (and most of his remaining lands are in Yorkshire and Derbyshire).

Also traditionally the Crown in creating peerages did not usually attach estates to the title - usually a peerage recognised the existing wealth of the individual - who sometimes chose a title that was associated with lands they already held.
If the crown was rewarding someone for exceptional service then an annuity might be awarded to increase that person's income to be able to support their new title (the annuity was usually only for life in those cases and could easily be cancelled by the crown if necessary - it was up to the recipient to use that revenue and any gained from offices of state to purchase lands that their heirs could use to support their position)

crown annuity's or pensions if you like could be assigned in varying ways - 1) quartely cash payments from the crown revenues or 2) assigning lands which produced an annual income equal to the annuity with the advantage that the Crown retained ownership of the lands whilst the pensioner received the income or 3) assigning lands in perpetuity which effectively alienated them from the crown during the lifetime of the person receiving them and their heirs).

Peers who had gained wealth over time naturally had a major base and often took their title from it such as the Duke's of Norfolk who did hold estates in East Anglia, the Earls of Arundal who did have lands on the South Coast and the Earls of Cumberland, Westmorland and Northumberland whose estates were largely based in the North.

In terms of a royal prince or princess - their household and revenue was usually established by the Crown and depended on how generous their father wanted to be - a Prince of Wales of course had his own income which included the Duchy of Cornwall revenues and the Palatine of Chester (in the absence of a Prince those simply went to the crown).

In the Tudor period there was a dearth of royal issue so most of the crown revenues were the monarch's to play with.

For his illegitimate son Henry Fitzroy - Henry granted him an annuity of almost £5,000 a year in the mid 1520s so for a second legitimate son i would be looking in that ball park.

That pension at the time was enormous but it was for a King's son - In the 1520s for example the Duke of Buckingham's land gave him an income of around £5,000 a year, The Earls of Derby around £4 to 5,000 and the Earl of Northumberland around £3,900 - no other peer had land worth more than £3,000 a year at that point.

Guildford Dudley can't be Duke of Suffolk unless you kill off his father in law Henry Grey Duke of Suffolk (granted him in right of his wife in 1551 by Dudley after the death of his wife's youngest half brother) - on Henry's death the Dukedom of Suffolk will go extinct (unless Francis Brandon has more children which isn't as unlikely as it sounds), the Baronies of Ferrers of Groby, Harrington and Bonville will fall into abeyance between his daughters and the Marquisate of Dorset will pass to his brother's (who will in this timeline all survive - as in OTL two of them died with Suffolk for treason against Mary I).

Elizabeth and Mary both had their own households - as under the terms of their father's will they were granted 3,000 a year to live on in lands, money and plate etc - if they married abroad they were each to receive 10,000 in money and plate - at the discretion of his executors. So neither sister is going to be forced to live with each other. They were exceptionally wealthy women by the standards of the time - given that the Duke of Northumberland's income as regent in all but name was around the £4,000 mark - but they were not free to marry without the consent of the council - if they did then the lost their rights to the succession.
 
Alright interesting, so likely Catherine has a mere physical instead of literal presence in raising her son, where might said son be based? Ludlow?

Also, a marriage with Mary could be quite interesting in terms of the rising of the north, and it's failure with Mary now married to Henry, I imagine France will be very pissed off.
 
I suspect he will get his own household somewhere in the London area but the nursery will probably be with Edward at Hatfield - perhaps after his father's death he stays there and it becomes his main residence as it did Elizabeth in OTL.

Rising of the North may or may not still happen - Northern Catholics might be angry that a Catholic Queen Consort has not mitigated persecution etc.

I don't know France in the 1560s isn't exactly in a good place - Catherine Medici will just be glad to see the back of her daughter in law I suspect along with a decline in the Guise power - she was determined Mary should not marry the new French King - Its a good solution for both France and Spain - a Catholic Queen in England might help role back Protestantism etc - France no longer is obliged to send soldiers and money to Scotland and Mary hasn't married into Spain.
 
I suspect he will get his own household somewhere in the London area but the nursery will probably be with Edward at Hatfield - perhaps after his father's death he stays there and it becomes his main residence as it did Elizabeth in OTL.

Rising of the North may or may not still happen - Northern Catholics might be angry that a Catholic Queen Consort has not mitigated persecution etc.

I don't know France in the 1560s isn't exactly in a good place - Catherine Medici will just be glad to see the back of her daughter in law I suspect along with a decline in the Guise power - she was determined Mary should not marry the new French King - Its a good solution for both France and Spain - a Catholic Queen in England might help role back Protestantism etc - France no longer is obliged to send soldiers and money to Scotland and Mary hasn't married into Spain.

Hmm very true, so I suppose Hatfield remains his residence until he ascends the throne or reaches his majority?

And interesting, do you think Henry might be more Anglican compared to his more puritan brother?
 
Hmm very true, so I suppose Hatfield remains his residence until he ascends the throne or reaches his majority?

And interesting, do you think Henry might be more Anglican compared to his more puritan brother?

Either or I think depends which way you want to go - given that Henry in the 1540s started to try and roll back a bit you might have a slightly less reformist education for his younger son - obviously though his tutors etc are going to be chosen by Edward VI's council and the brothers may well share some of them. He could be more pragmatic like Elizabeth or as invested in religion as Mary and Edward VI were. The advantage is that the choice lies with the writer - depends if you want an English church closer to the Elizabethan settlement or one more rooted in reform. Crammer will be a major player cos he is going to survive into Henry IX's reign and he was no puritan - he is now in his 60s - and was often at odds with other bishops and the council over how far reform should go.
 
Either or I think depends which way you want to go - given that Henry in the 1540s started to try and roll back a bit you might have a slightly less reformist education for his younger son - obviously though his tutors etc are going to be chosen by Edward VI's council and the brothers may well share some of them. He could be more pragmatic like Elizabeth or as invested in religion as Mary and Edward VI were. The advantage is that the choice lies with the writer - depends if you want an English church closer to the Elizabethan settlement or one more rooted in reform. Crammer will be a major player cos he is going to survive into Henry IX's reign and he was no puritan - he is now in his 60s - and was often at odds with other bishops and the council over how far reform should go.

Alright very interesting, is there a chance we could see instead of a Catholic uprising, perhaps a Puritan revolt?
 
Could be - though the problem is there are so many different and disparate groups of protestants unlike the Catholics who had a simple unifying cause - the only thing that united Protestants was their hatred of the Catholic church.
At the end of the day there was no alternative for Protestants in otl but to accept Elizabeth and hope for movement in their direction after she was gone with the Stuart's who soon became just as "high church Anglican" as Elizabeth - of course over time combined with their personality and attempts to rule personally it all led to civil war.
One advantage for Henry IX is that unlike Elizabeth even Catholics will have to view him as legitimate - which might mean less anti-Catholic legislation (though don't rule out Protestant MPs and Peers pushing for it) - Catholics became a threat to Elizabeth overtime resulting in legislation she had no desire for but was necessary in order to preserve her and her realm and she had in the same Island a Roman Catholic rival who had claimed Elizabeth's throne.
 
Could be - though the problem is there are so many different and disparate groups of protestants unlike the Catholics who had a simple unifying cause - the only thing that united Protestants was their hatred of the Catholic church.
At the end of the day there was no alternative for Protestants in otl but to accept Elizabeth and hope for movement in their direction after she was gone with the Stuart's who soon became just as "high church Anglican" as Elizabeth - of course over time combined with their personality and attempts to rule personally it all led to civil war.
One advantage for Henry IX is that unlike Elizabeth even Catholics will have to view him as legitimate - which might mean less anti-Catholic legislation (though don't rule out Protestant MPs and Peers pushing for it) - Catholics became a threat to Elizabeth overtime resulting in legislation she had no desire for but was necessary in order to preserve her and her realm and she had in the same Island a Roman Catholic rival who had claimed Elizabeth's throne.

Alright that does make sense. And I suppose as others have suggested, Mary will remain unwed until her death?
 
So following on from the fall of Somerset in the late 1540s, Dudley would come to power, first as Earl of Warwick and then as Duke of Northumberland, is otl attempts to reform the treasury and the crown's finances would occur, as would elements of unrest and disturbances. Possibly, Mary might be used as the basis for plots against the throne, and she herself might be courted by one or more suitors. When Edward VI dies in 1553, his brother, Henry, is at Hatfield, and is formally proclaimed King later that day, coronated a few weeks later, as Henry IX of England. Northumberland continues in his role as Lord Protector, whilst the country begins wondering how long they shall be cursed with a child King. Perhaps, Catholic dissidents might sense a chance to pounce?
 
Top