Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon

It would be seen as given a lie to Henry's argument - but he would claim not be wrong, just to have an imperfect understanding of Leviticus and Deuteronomy which God had just perfected by giving him a son with Katherine (although he might actually wait until the child survived a year before making a statement).
Intriguing what might such a child be called?
 
I genuinely doubt Catherine would be able to get pregnant in 1528. Rumours abound throughout the 1520s she's gone through the "change" and Henry all but confirmed it many times. The scenario you guys keep talking about is very humorous and It would probably have ended up being the greatest scandal in Christendom, but it's just so unlikely. A son in 1521, meanwhile, is probably the latest we can go before it gets crazy unbelievable. It also ties Henry VIII of England so tight to the Catholic Church he'll never leave. That son would be seen as his reward for defending the church.
 
I genuinely doubt Catherine would be able to get pregnant in 1528. Rumours abound throughout the 1520s she's gone through the "change" and Henry all but confirmed it many times. The scenario you guys keep talking about is very humorous and It would probably have ended up being the greatest scandal in Christendom, but it's just so unlikely. A son in 1521, meanwhile, is probably the latest we can go before it gets crazy unbelievable. It also ties Henry VIII of England so tight to the Catholic Church he'll never leave. That son would be seen as his reward for defending the church.

Hmm interesting.
 
But, if we go by this idea and at 43 Catherine suddenly finds herself pregnant and gives birth to a healthy Henry Jnr., a few things are going to happen.

  1. Anne will immediately:
    1. Throw some form of tantrum.
    2. Remind Henry of the son in 1511 who was born healthy just to die.
    3. Leave court.
  2. Henry will:
    1. Feel extremely proud.
    2. Feel extremely embarrassed.
    3. Attempt to retcon everything he's done in the past year to seem less douche-tastic.
    4. Find a match for Anne in the coming year.
  3. The Pope will
    1. Exult in his position.
    2. Send a smug, passive aggressive letter of congratulations.
Because, let's remember, this kid has to grow into adulthood. But let's say he lives for the time being and Catherine dies sometime in 1530. Henry has had massive issues finding Anne Boleyn a suitable husband and thus she's still free at the time, so they get married in unseemly haste. Their first child, a boy, is born in 1531 and named Edward or Thomas, although Edward is more likely. Queen Anne is fond of reformist ideas, but keeps a lid on it. She undergoes 4/5 pregnancies in the 1530s, giving birth to 2 further living children, a son in 1535 named Thomas, and a daughter in 1537 named Elizabeth. Henry believes this match is truly blessed and names his sons Duke of York and Duke of Clarence. Around 1541/2 Anne undergoes a final pregnancy and dies after a painful labor, most likely losing the baby. Henry remarries, maybe to Marie of Guise or some other suitable Frenchwoman to remind him of Anne, if any are available.
 
But, if we go by this idea and at 43 Catherine suddenly finds herself pregnant and gives birth to a healthy Henry Jnr., a few things are going to happen.

  1. Anne will immediately:
    1. Throw some form of tantrum.
    2. Remind Henry of the son in 1511 who was born healthy just to die.
    3. Leave court.
  2. Henry will:
    1. Feel extremely proud.
    2. Feel extremely embarrassed.
    3. Attempt to retcon everything he's done in the past year to seem less douche-tastic.
    4. Find a match for Anne in the coming year.
  3. The Pope will
    1. Exult in his position.
    2. Send a smug, passive aggressive letter of congratulations.
Because, let's remember, this kid has to grow into adulthood. But let's say he lives for the time being and Catherine dies sometime in 1530. Henry has had massive issues finding Anne Boleyn a suitable husband and thus she's still free at the time, so they get married in unseemly haste. Their first child, a boy, is born in 1531 and named Edward or Thomas, although Edward is more likely. Queen Anne is fond of reformist ideas, but keeps a lid on it. She undergoes 4/5 pregnancies in the 1530s, giving birth to 2 further living children, a son in 1535 named Thomas, and a daughter in 1537 named Elizabeth. Henry believes this match is truly blessed and names his sons Duke of York and Duke of Clarence. Around 1541/2 Anne undergoes a final pregnancy and dies after a painful labor, most likely losing the baby. Henry remarries, maybe to Marie of Guise or some other suitable Frenchwoman to remind him of Anne, if any are available.

Intriguing, what makes you think he'd remarry if he's got so many kids from Anne? As well as the kid from Catherine? Also, for the third son, Duke of Gloucester seems a more likely title
 
Intriguing, what makes you think he'd remarry if he's got so many kids from Anne? As well as the kid from Catherine? Also, for the third son, Duke of Gloucester seems a more likely title

Gloucester might have the taint of Richard III of England on it, but if you think so, then sure. And I think he'd remarry because he'd be lonely, and have a bunch of kids that need a mother. Plus he's pretty close to his OTL death-date, so he might want someone to coddle him in his old age. Actually, if he gets Mary and James to marry, then I can definitely see Marie de Guise in this scenario becoming Queen of England. No children, but definitely Queen.

Henry VIII of England (b.1491) m. Catherine of Aragon (b.1485: d.1530) (a), Anne Boleyn (b.1501/1507: d.1541) (b), Marie de Guise (b.1515) (c)

1a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1510)

2a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1511: d.1511)

3a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1513: d.1513)

4a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1515: d.1515)

5a) Mary Tudor (b.1516) m. James II of Scotland (b.1512) (a)

6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1518)

7a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1528)

8b) Edward Tudor, Duke of York (b.1531)

9b) Miscarriage (c.1532)

10b) Stillborn Son (c.1534)

11b) Thomas Tudor, Duke of Gloucester (b.1535)

12b) Miscarriage (c.1536)

13b) Elizabeth Tudor (b.1539)

14b) Stillborn Daughter (c.1541)​
 
Gloucester might have the taint of Richard III of England on it, but if you think so, then sure. And I think he'd remarry because he'd be lonely, and have a bunch of kids that need a mother. Plus he's pretty close to his OTL death-date, so he might want someone to coddle him in his old age. Actually, if he gets Mary and James to marry, then I can definitely see Marie de Guise in this scenario becoming Queen of England. No children, but definitely Queen.

Henry VIII of England (b.1491) m. Catherine of Aragon (b.1485: d.1530) (a), Anne Boleyn (b.1501/1507: d.1541) (b), Marie de Guise (b.1515) (c)

1a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1510)

2a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1511: d.1511)

3a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1513: d.1513)

4a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1515: d.1515)

5a) Mary Tudor (b.1516) m. James II of Scotland (b.1512) (a)

6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1518)

7a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1528)

8b) Edward Tudor, Duke of York (b.1531)

9b) Miscarriage (c.1532)

10b) Stillborn Son (c.1534)

11b) Thomas Tudor, Duke of Gloucester (b.1535)

12b) Miscarriage (c.1536)

13b) Elizabeth Tudor (b.1539)

14b) Stillborn Daughter (c.1541)​

Now that would definitely be something, and would prevent the rough wooing, thus potentially avoiding James V's death in 1542, thus ensuring some more stability for Scotland short term at least
 
Now our little Henry Jnr. has some major issues. The two main contenders for his bride are NOT going to go to him. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor was always going to marry his first daughter to his brother's first son if he could, and Maria Manuela was always going to be Philip's. So Henry VIII needs to find a replacement. Here's a list of potential partners:

  1. Margaret de Valois (b.1523)
  2. Elisabeth of Austria (b.1526)
  3. Christina of Denmark (b.1521)
  4. Anne of Denmark (b.1532)
  5. Dorothea of Denmark (b.1528)
  6. Jeanne d'Albret III of Navarre (b.1528)
  7. Anne of Austria (b.1528)
I'd personally go for one of the Austrian girls, maybe Anne. Although Margaret de Valois might make an interest match.
 
For Mary and James, I see 6/7 pregnancies with around 3/4 surviving children. Let's say:

James V of Scotland (b.1512) m. Mary Tudor (b.1516) (a)

1a) Catherine Stewart (b.1533)

2a) Joan Stewart (b.1535: d.1536)

3a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1536)

4a) James Stewart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1538)

5a) Stillborn Son (c.1540)

6a) Alexander Stewart, Duke of Albany (b.1543)

7a) Henry Stewart, Duke of Ross (b.1546)​
 
Now our little Henry Jnr. has some major issues. The two main contenders for his bride are NOT going to go to him. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor was always going to marry his first daughter to his brother's first son if he could, and Maria Manuela was always going to be Philip's. So Henry VIII needs to find a replacement. Here's a list of potential partners:

  1. Margaret de Valois (b.1523)
  2. Elisabeth of Austria (b.1526)
  3. Christina of Denmark (b.1521)
  4. Anne of Denmark (b.1532)
  5. Dorothea of Denmark (b.1528)
  6. Jeanne d'Albret III of Navarre (b.1528)
  7. Anne of Austria (b.1528)
I'd personally go for one of the Austrian girls, maybe Anne. Although Margaret de Valois might make an interest match.

Interesting why the preference for one of the austrian girls?
 
Hmm true so would either Anne of Austria or Margaret of Valois make sense then?

Oh definitely. If you wanted to, a match between England and France might come if at any point Henry feels fucked over by Charles. It depends on where you take it.
 
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