Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon

Catherine of Aragon and Henry VIII had a few children, only one of whom actually survived, the infamous Mary I. The couple had stillborns in 1510, 1511, 1513, 1514, 1515 and 1518. What I am wondering is what is the latest and most realistic date for them to have a son who would survive and perhaps grow into adulthood?
 
Well, Catherine was only 33 when she underwent her final pregnancy, so theoretically she could have had another decade or so of childbearing. However, judging by both her sisters' and mother's genealogical histories, she'd most likely have gone through menopause in the early 1520s. However, that does give her at least 2/3 years more. One idea that I had always though was if Catherine had underwent a final pregnancy in 1521, to give birth around October, to coincide with the title Defender of the Faith being bestowed on Henry VIII of England by the Pope. This would doubly show Henry that his marriage is blessed and that, like Job, he had to suffer before being rewarded (although in this case suffering meant having a totally healthy heir who happened to be a girl but whatever). This child would most likely be named either Henry or Edward, although I lean more towards Henry as it seems every single boy child Henry had by Catherine was named Henry. At 36, Catherine would definitely be at the end of her fertile period, so little Henry Tudor would be her last pregnancy.
 
Well, Catherine was only 33 when she underwent her final pregnancy, so theoretically she could have had another decade or so of childbearing. However, judging by both her sisters' and mother's genealogical histories, she'd most likely have gone through menopause in the early 1520s. However, that does give her at least 2/3 years more. One idea that I had always though was if Catherine had underwent a final pregnancy in 1521, to give birth around October, to coincide with the title Defender of the Faith being bestowed on Henry VIII of England by the Pope. This would doubly show Henry that his marriage is blessed and that, like Job, he had to suffer before being rewarded (although in this case suffering meant having a totally healthy heir who happened to be a girl but whatever). This child would most likely be named either Henry or Edward, although I lean more towards Henry as it seems every single boy child Henry had by Catherine was named Henry. At 36, Catherine would definitely be at the end of her fertile period, so little Henry Tudor would be her last pregnancy.

Okay interesting, so most likely the kid would be born at the latest around 1521, might this prevent Henry chasing after Anne? And thus prevent the whole split from Rome or delay it a little? And I guess, Catherine becoming pregnant around 1528, would be little to no chance?
 
So here we'd see Henry the younger, as Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall and Earl of CHester, how might his birth and survival coming so late in the game change things?
 
Okay interesting, so most likely the kid would be born at the latest around 1521, might this prevent Henry chasing after Anne? And thus prevent the whole split from Rome or delay it a little? And I guess, Catherine becoming pregnant around 1528, would be little to no chance?

Anne would most likely become his mistress or a confidant, if she manages to say no for long enough and earn his admiration. The only reason Henry became infatuated with marrying her was his sonless marriage to Catherine, a problem not had here. I can see him finding her an Earl to marry and keeping her at court to treat as a sexless mistress. And England will definitely say Catholic while Henry is around. With the one-two punch of that grand title and a son, he'll be feeling very fond of the old Bishop of Rome. Most likely he goes full Isabella I of Castile at some point and forces out all those with Protestant sympathies (possibly including his buddy Anne). And no, Catherine had definitely undergone menopause by 1524, so I doubt a 1528 child would occur.

Now onto these children. Mary was, as of her brother's birth, betrothed to the Dauphin. However, I can see this not going through if Catherine can help it. But it is the most attractive of the options, particularly after Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor marries Isabella of Portugal. Now for our Prince of Wales, there's a few options. There's Madeleine and Margaret de Valois, Maria of Spain, Dorothea and Christina of Denmark, Catherine de' Medici, Eleanor of Toledo, Maria of Portugal, Sophia Jagiellon, Margaret of Parma, Louise and Renee of Guise, Maria Manuela of Portugal and Elisabeth of Austria. Out of these, I can see either Margaret de Valois or Maria of Portugal making good brides. I would most likely endorse a match between Maria of Portugal, if just for varieties sake.

So:

Henry VIII of England (b.1491) m. Catherine of Aragon (b.1485) (a)

1a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1510)

2a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1511: d.1511)

3a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1513: d.1513)

4a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1515: d.1515)

5a) Mary Tudor (b.1516) m. Francis de Valois, Dauphin of France (b.1518: d.1536) (a)

6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1518)

7a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1521) m. Maria of Portugal (b.1521) (a)​
 
Okay interesting, if I remember correctly Anne refused to sleep with Henry unless they were married no? If Henry viii remains cstholic would that mean Anne keeps a lid on her reformer leanings?

Intrtesting bride does that mean Philip II has to marry elsewhere ?
 
No, I'm suggesting his first bride's aunt, who was only 6 years older then Philip's bride. She was the daughter of Manuel I of Portugal and Eleanor of Austria.
 
And Anne would most likely let it slip out at some point. She wasn't the most discreet OTL about her feelings and, if she's managed to gain the King's ear, might find herself thinking she can influence him. In the end, that would bite her in the arse.
 
No, I'm suggesting his first bride's aunt, who was only 6 years older then Philip's bride. She was the daughter of Manuel I of Portugal and Eleanor of Austria.
Ah I get you okay interesting. Also I note that you've got Francis dying in 1536 what would happen to Mary once he's dead?
 
And Anne would most likely let it slip out at some point. She wasn't the most discreet OTL about her feelings and, if she's managed to gain the King's ear, might find herself thinking she can influence him. In the end, that would bite her in the arse.
Hmm interesting Anne being executed for heresy
 
I do think it would be interesting to see Richard de la Pole survive Pavia in 1525, and potentially actually leading that invasion that was planned otl.
 
If Mary married the Dauphin wouldn't their familial affinity, her having been married (and widowed) to his son, be too great to overcome and thus invalidate the match? Presumably the Dauphin and Mary would have consummated the marriage which would prevent her marrying Francis.
 
If Mary married the Dauphin wouldn't their familial affinity, her having been married (and widowed) to his son, be too great to overcome and thus invalidate the match? Presumably the Dauphin and Mary would have consummated the marriage which would prevent her marrying Francis.

Indeed, that was what I was thinking, a marriage to Dauphin Francis makes far more sense than to King Francis, or later on to him as she'd technically be his daughter through church law.
 
Okay, I'm for stirring the pot....how about an oops baby 2 January 1528 - after Henry's been telling Anne for a year he's not longer 'cohabiting' with Katherine? Can you imagine how pissed Anne would be to find he's having sex (with his wife!) when he's supposed to lusting after HER!
 
How strong are the chances of the kid surviving, or for that matter Catherine surviving? Had Henry not abandoned Catherine by this point?
 
Answering the second question first: she wasn't exiled until after 1530; so even if he weren't officially sharing her bed, in an alt history scenario, who's to say he didn't visit, they get into a passionate argument which ended in "make-up sex" rather than tears and slamming doors?

The odds are she would be greatly weakened, but the child could survive - ironically surviving because she didn't do all the things or observe all the restrictions for pregnancy in that era. I can see her dying within, say 18 months, of the birth. Which then raises the question of who would be his second wife - because as soon as she realizes Henry has a son with Katherine, Anne Boleyn is outta there.
 
Answering the second question first: she wasn't exiled until after 1530; so even if he weren't officially sharing her bed, in an alt history scenario, who's to say he didn't visit, they get into a passionate argument which ended in "make-up sex" rather than tears and slamming doors?

The odds are she would be greatly weakened, but the child could survive - ironically surviving because she didn't do all the things or observe all the restrictions for pregnancy in that era. I can see her dying within, say 18 months, of the birth. Which then raises the question of who would be his second wife - because as soon as she realizes Henry has a son with Katherine, Anne Boleyn is outta there.

Interesting, and how do you think such a pregnancy would be received the world over?
 
It would be seen as given a lie to Henry's argument - but he would claim not be wrong, just to have an imperfect understanding of Leviticus and Deuteronomy which God had just perfected by giving him a son with Katherine (although he might actually wait until the child survived a year before making a statement).
 
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