Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon

[Yorel]

Earlier, I made a thread on Louis XIII of France and Anna of Austria were the four stillborn children Anne bore before Louis XIV and his brother Philippe were not stillborn. I asked about the consequences and it was an interesting discussion.

I thus decided to make another thread with a similar POD, but with a different couple. I choosed the most exhuberant English King (Henry VIII) and his first wife Catherine of Aragon. Catherine had six pregnancies OTL, but only one of her children survived (OTL "Bloody" Mary I, Queen of England).

So, as our POD, let's say that Catherine is more lucky in her pregnancies and gives Henry VIII the following children :

1. Mary (Born on January 31, 1510)
2. Henry (Born on January 1, 1511)
3. Edward (Born on October 1513)
4. Arthur (Born on December 1514)
5. Elizabeth (Born on February 18, 1516)
6. Jane (Born on November 10, 1518)

How does it affect History?
Does England still embraces the Reform, or does Henry VIII remain loyal to the Papacy?
Who are the possible husband/wives for these children?

 

[Alex Richards]

England's staying Catholic for definate here.

We have our new Henry IX, along with the first time we've had a good run of lesser Royal Dukedoms in a while.

Edward becomes Duke of York, Arthur would either be Duke of Clarence or Duke of Gloucester.

The three princesses are married off to the major European powers of the time: France, Spain and the Empire. Mary may get Phillip II of Spain as OTL if things are amenable.

In terms of renewing the Scottish link, that will probably have to wait to the next generation.

 

[Simon]

Granted I'm not very well read on the period but I don't think he'd be all that terribly well inclined towards the reformation. From what I can remember he was always a fairly religious person and even when he split from Rome he still considered himself to be a Catholic, just with himself as head of the national chruch. As long as the Pope doesn't get in his way and deny him anything that he considers to be vital for him or his heirs I don't think he'd splt. Although the prospect of all the cash and land from looting the monestaries and increased power for the crown would be tempting.

 

[reformedcpmuser]

Granted I'm not very well read on the period but I don't think he'd be all that terribly well inclined towards the reformation. From what I can remember he was always a fairly religious person and even when he split from Rome he still considered himself to be a Catholic, just with himself as head of the national chruch. As long as the Pope doesn't get in his way and deny him anything that he considers to be vital for him or his heirs I don't think he'd splt. Although the prospect of all the cash and land from looting the monestaries and increased power for the crown would be tempting.

While the Crown might remain Catholic in OTL there will still be a sizable number of Protestant sympathizers in Britain. This would include not only former priests but also a good number of urban petit-bourgeois, educated laity, and some sectors of the clergy. Also, if John Knox's successful Calvinist revolution in Scotland happens as OTL, Henry will have to deal with the personal, political, and geographic ramifications of a mostly Calvinist neighbor to the north.

The ATL "stronger Tudors" would either try to suppress Protestantism as their ancestors tried to do with the Lollards and Wycliffe, or try to find a way to balance a Catholic majority and Protestant minority such as in France after St. Bartholomew's Massacre ("Paris is worth a Mass".) If the Tudors go for the second route, which is likely given the status of Scotland and the influential position of some Protestants, Catholicism would remain the state religion while Protestantism would gain freedom of assembly and a degree of social mobility.

I would not be surprised if the Tudors would choose the latter. This would be highly likely if the union of Great Britain happens as in OTL. There will inevitably be Tudor intermarriage with Protestants.

 

[Simon]

Be interesting to see what sort of knock-ons that would have with regards to Ireland.

 

[reformedcpmuser]

Be interesting to see what sort of knock-ons that would have with regards to Ireland.

Catholic Tudors might butterfly away the Civil War and the Protectorate. If Cromwell can be avoided, then Ireland would not have to suffer his brutal occupation, murder of clergy, and destruction of Catholic churches. Ireland would still be absolutely subject to the Catholic Tudors, but without the social and economic devastation of Oliver and his thugs.

 

[Yorel]

Edward becomes Duke of York, Arthur would either be Duke of Clarence or Duke of Gloucester.

I'd say Duke of Clarence for Arthur rather thand Duke of Gloucester. In Edward IV's days, his brother George was Duke of Clarence while his other brother Richard was Duke of Gloucester. Richard was younger than George, meaning Clarence is probably more important thant Gloucester.

Since Edward IV's reign wasn't that far from that of Henry VIII (Edward IV is Henry VIII's granfather through the latter's mother), Arthur would likely be Duke of Clarence.

The three princesses are married off to the major European powers of the time: France, Spain and the Empire. Mary may get Phillip II of Spain as OTL if things are amenable.

So Mary would be wedded to her cousin Philip II of Spain, just like her OTL counterpart? The age difference is gonna be greater than it was though : TTL Mary is 17 years older than Philip II, while her OTL counterpart was 11 years older than him.

I guess this means Elizabeth would be wedded to a French prince, to balance things off. The Likely candidate are two of Francis I's sons : Francis (1518-1536) and Charles (1522-1545). OTL Henri II of France (1519-1559) isn't an option since he was already wedded to Catherine de Medici before his older brother Francis died.

And who would be Jane's husband? OTL Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor?

 

[Last of the Stuarts]

From what I can remember he was always a fairly religious person and even when he split from Rome he still considered himself to be a Catholic, just with himself as head of the national chruch.

Henry wrote a book defending the Catholic CHurch, which earned him the title of Defender of the Faith (a title still carried by the monarcy, it's the FD after the Queens name on the British coins) from the Pope.

I think the most interesting aspect is what would happen to the British Empire, as one of the main reasons for the colonisation of the Americas was the competion with Spain because they were Catholic and the English were not.

 

[Elfwine]

England would find some other reason. Its not as if Catholic France didn't compete with Catholic Spain.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

Mary might get the Emperor, himself. After all, our original Mary was betrothed to the Emperor for a short-time, but he broke it off to marry Isabella of Portugal (who aside from being closer in age, brought a much greater dowry). Sure he'd be ten years older than her, but he didn't marry the Portuguese Infanta until 1526 IOTL. Catherine pressed heavily for an Imperial Alliance and may have a bit more leeway the king if she has provided him with a boon of children (several sons, at that) aside from the lone daughter.

 

[Pericles]

What would be the effects on Europe? I see a stronger Spanish Empire and ultimately, Protestantism in Europe would be weakened.

 

[Elfwine]

What would be the effects on Europe? I see a stronger Spanish Empire and ultimately, Protestantism in Europe would be weakened.

Why?

England has no reason to want a stronger Spain whether Catholic, Protestant, or ASB pagan, and even if Henry doesn't split with the pope over no male issue from Catherine that doesn't necessarily mean a Catholic England lasts.

I'd hate to argue it would have no impact on Protestantism, but I definitely would argue that it has little obvious impact on Spain's fortunes.

 

[Pericles]

Why?

England has no reason to want a stronger Spain whether Catholic, Protestant, or ASB pagan, and even if Henry doesn't split with the pope over no male issue from Catherine that doesn't necessarily mean a Catholic England lasts.

It would be a similar scenario to France. Protestant minority and Catholic majority. Without the split with Rome there just aren't the ingredients in England for a Reformation, Catholicism is too deep-rooted. in Scotland, Catholicism is not so well rooted. I do see religious wars in England, though.

 

[Alex Richards]

I wouldn't rule out Henry still breaking with Rome if he decides he wants the money from the Monastaries though.

 

[Harrington]

I'm no expert but I do know a thing or 2 about Henry. Before his brother died and Henry become heir to the throne, it was the intention of both Henry VII and Queen Elizabeth for the then Henry, Duke of York to become a priest. I'm sure I have read somewhere that the intention was for him to eventually become Archbishop of Canterbury and as such putting the Church in England in the hands of the Tudors.

Henry was 10 when Arthur died, so by this time his education was well in hand. By all accounts Henry was an intelligent young man and also devout. As has been stated Henry wrote a treatise in 1519 - 1521 attacking Luther and Protestantism which was so well received, Pope Leo X awarded him the Defender of the Faith title. Luther promptly replied calling Henry "a pig, dolt and liar".

During his marriage he had numerous mistresses, indeed this was the norm and expected of him, one of these mistresses was Anne Boleyn. Just because Catherine is churning out surviving children, Henry is still going to be sleeping his way round the court. The other thing to consider is that Henry was an Absolute Ruler, His word was, quite literally, law. This has a habit of turning said ruler into an egomaniac. add into this the fact that at this time Henry was considered the most handsome prince in Christendom.

I think Henry would be fine with the Pope and Rome up to the moment something is asked or demanded of him. At that point, I think his split would start, would it go as far and as deep as it did? I don't know. It would probably depend on which advisers Henry had around him at the time.

 

[Lord Grattan]

I wouldn't rule out Henry still breaking with Rome if he decides he wants the money from the Monastaries though.

Not likely. Look at it this way:

Asking the pope for a dispensation and permission to marry the woman he wishes to marry (and anticipating that the pope will say yes), only to have the pope say, in nòmine Patris, et Fìlii,et Spìritus Sancti - NO, is an unacceptable and humiliating rebuke that results in broken communion between Pope and King.

Withholding/reallocating-to local-use a portion (a goodly portion perhaps) of the English Church percapita dues and financial contribution to the larger Church (Rome) is a relatively small spat that gets resolved in time to the satisfaction of both Pope and King.

 

[CalBear]

DIE Zombie DIE!!!!

Back to the grave with you

Necro = Locked.