Henry VII dies pre Bosworth

Unless they just use a "Perkin Warbeck" figure claiming to be a surviving someone or other. After all, if he wins he can be married to someone who really does have royal blood.

Who'd be a believable one though?

What about a French match? If Henry Tudor fails then France eventually would have to come to terms with Richard III.

Hmm who might be an option there?
 
Documents later found in the Portuguese royal archives show that after Anne's death, Richard's ambassadors were sent on a formal errand to negotiate a double marriage between Richard and the Portuguese king's sister Joanna, of Lancastrian descent, and Elizabeth of York and Joana's cousin Duke Manuel

Richard III (B. 1952) m. Joanna, Princess of Portugal (B.1952)
Richard, Prince of Wales (B. 1488)
Joan (B. 1490)
John, Duke of York (B. 1492)
Anne (B. 1494)
William, Duke of Cambridge (B. 1496)
Isabella (1498)
George, Duke of Gloucester (1503)
Cecily (1507)

Was the title Prince of Wales commonly used for the king's eldest son before the Tudors?
 
Depends how many people want to believe.

Yeah, it's not as if anyone thought Henry Tudor was believable until he marched through Wales in triumph. There are any number of Beaufort progeny through various daughters, as well as other descendants of Edward III more senior than Richard. Some of them may rebel or invade, and some of them could win if he makes himself unpopular enough (say, by marrying his niece, which was just Tudor propaganda) and they're as good at leading as Tudor. If all goes well for Richard, he'll be succeeded by the de la Poles or maybe his own son if he has one in the meantime. Presuming the de la Poles succeed, well, John doesn't seem like a particularly good ruler from what we know of his 1487 campaign, and Richard was an adventurer. Edmund would be a safe pair of hands if his brother died quite young, though. But there's no doubt that there would be pretenders and rebellions until someone as talented as Tudor came along.

I just want to say at this point that the identities of the wives of Kings and the precise date on which they suffer their third miscarriage matters a lot less in historical terms than some people seem to believe.
 
Who'd be a believable one though?

Well there's no reason it would be any less believable than Lambert and Perkin IOTL, and those dissatisfied with Richard will "believe" impostors if they represent their best opportunity to be rid of Richard III.

Presuming the de la Poles succeed, well, John doesn't seem like a particularly good ruler from what we know of his 1487 campaign, and Richard was an adventurer. Edmund would be a safe pair of hands if his brother died quite young, though. But there's no doubt that there would be pretenders and rebellions until someone as talented as Tudor came along.

What makes you think Edmund will be a safe pair of hands? Didn't he just flit around Europe accumulating debts before getting extradited and executed IOTL? Richard was at least a decent soldier, does Edmund have anything going for him?

Though the forgotten de la Pole brother, William, who was imprisoned when his brothers fled the country and stayed in tower til he died 40-years later, may have been older than Richard.
 
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Hmm interesting, though apart from those who claim descent from the Beauforts, who was actually more senior than Richard at this point?
 
if he makes himself unpopular enough (say, by marrying his niece, which was just Tudor propaganda) .



I wouldn't assume that.

Around the same time as those rumours were floating around, Henry Tudor was reportedly putting out feelers for a possible marriage with Maud Herbert, which could have brought him some useful support in Wales, but was a pretty poor substitute for EoY, whilst Elizabeth Woodville invited the surviving son of her first marriage to return to England. All in all, it suggests something in the wind about a possible reconciliation between Richard and the Woodvilles, and one which would put EoY beyond Henry's reach. Inconclusive, but suggestive.

I suspect that Richard may have toyed with the idea, but rejected it, or been dissuaded, because too many of his existing supporters would be in danger if the Woodvilles returned to influence at court - and the Woodvilles might prove treacherous allies. He could have ended up weaker rather than stronger.
 
I wouldn't assume that.

Around the same time as those rumours were floating around, Henry Tudor was reportedly putting out feelers for a possible marriage with Maud Herbert, which could have brought him some useful support in Wales, but was a pretty poor substitute for EoY, whilst Elizabeth Woodville invited the surviving son of her first marriage to return to England. All in all, it suggests something in the wind about a possible reconciliation between Richard and the Woodvilles, and one which would put EoY beyond Henry's reach. Inconclusive, but suggestive.

I suspect that Richard may have toyed with the idea, but rejected it, or been dissuaded, because too many of his existing supporters would be in danger if the Woodvilles returned to influence at court - and the Woodvilles might prove treacherous allies. He could have ended up weaker rather than stronger.

Seems legit, I suppose having Elizabeth marry to either a Ricardian loyalist or out of the country would be for the best then? What of her other sisters?
 
Elizabeth of York is going to end up in a nunnery if Richard III stays on top. As the daughter of King Edward IV she's simply too dangerous to be allowed to marry any Englishman and no foreigner is going to be interested in someone who doesn't bring either a dowry or alliance.
 
Elizabeth of York is going to end up in a nunnery if Richard III stays on top. As the daughter of King Edward IV she's simply too dangerous to be allowed to marry any Englishman and no foreigner is going to be interested in someone who doesn't bring either a dowry or alliance.

Hmm very true, I've often wondered what might've happened had Richard's son Edward survived, might there have been a marriage beetween him and Elizabeth?
 
Elizabeth of York is going to end up in a nunnery if Richard III stays on top. As the daughter of King Edward IV she's simply too dangerous to be allowed to marry any Englishman and no foreigner is going to be interested in someone who doesn't bring either a dowry or alliance.

Hmm very true, I've often wondered what might've happened had Richard's son Edward survived, might there have been a marriage beetween him and Elizabeth?
The negotiations of the marriage beetween Richard and Joanna of Portugal included a deal regarding the engagement of Elizabeth of York and Manuel, Duke of Beja, who IOTL later became king Manuel I.
 
The negotiations of the marriage beetween Richard and Joanna of Portugal included a deal regarding the engagement of Elizabeth of York and Manuel, Duke of Beja, who IOTL later became king Manuel I.

That it did, would such a thing have gone through though?
 
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