Henry VII and Henry VIII dead in 1509

One other thing: I think James and Margaret might proceed with the marriage of Princess Mary to Charles simply to 'balance' their alliances (and it's a good way for James to prove he's not France's puppet). In 1509, she is of age to wed. After the court mourning, a marriage to cheer everyone up might be welcomed. (It also avoids a pro-Mary party forming among the nobles.)
Better having Maria of Aragon Queen of Portugal dying earlier than OTL and Mary Tudor becoming the third wife of Manuel I of Portugal instead of Louis XII... Portugal is a tradional ally of England, is a wedding alliance in the Spanish camp, Charles himself will likely be in favour of that match and if Mary’s line will ever be called on the English’s throne is unlikely who England will be in personal union with other lands...
Albany is already married (and a too dangerous match), Arran is likely to be a too low match while in Portugal Mary would be Queen but her children will not rule
 
What it boils down to is that the English want the least foreign, least French, least female, with the most right by blood, in charge. Since the nobles have Mary under control if James is too much of a jerk about improper titles being a personal insult they could probably find a way to disbar Margaret. It might not be clean but it's possible.


All the more reason for doing as I suggest asap. Once Mary is married off to another Scotsman, there's that much less reason to look to her as an alternative.
 
Did he lack a claim, or did he have a weak claim?
Iirc any claim he himself had came from his Beaufort grandmother, the Beauforts themselves having a weaker claim than the Yorks.
So both Devon and Lincoln at the least would come before James and there's likely several others.
 
Iirc any claim he himself had came from his Beaufort grandmother, the Beauforts themselves having a weaker claim than the Yorks.
So both Devon and Lincoln at the least would come before James and there's likely several others.
But he has the bigger army, no?
 
But he has the bigger army, no?
A) is the very Renaissance man that James was really going to war over the difference between Consort and Regnant?
B) an invasion by the King of Scots will do more to unite the English nobles against him than not
C) OTL James died trying to invade England
D) One of the reasons Henry VII married Elizabeth of York was to solidify his line's rights to the throne. Henry himself may have won it through conquest but it took that marriage and defeating several rebellions to secure it.
 
A) is the very Renaissance man that James was really going to war over the difference between Consort and Regnant?
B) an invasion by the King of Scots will do more to unite the English nobles against him than not
C) OTL James died trying to invade England
D) One of the reasons Henry VII married Elizabeth of York was to solidify his line's rights to the throne. Henry himself may have won it through conquest but it took that marriage and defeating several rebellions to secure it.
A. It's not war itself so much as the possibility of war.
B. Since when?
C. Irrelevant.
D. The best laid plans of monarchs frequently fail, and in England more than in most major European monarchies of the era, might makes right.
 
A. It's not war itself so much as the possibility of war.
And would James even threaten war over the difference between Consort and Regnant?
B. Since when?
Since the last one.
C. Irrelevant.
Not if he has a similar invasion in mind
D. The best laid plans of monarchs frequently fail, and in England more than in most major European monarchies of the era, might makes right.
Not solely and only when diplomacy had failed. Look at how Henry VII treated those rising up against him in favour of a Yorkist Restoration.

You're not convincing me at all here.
Why is one of the most educated monarchs in Europe threatening war over the possibility he might not be de jure co-monarch with his wife?
It's likely that he'll de facto be regnant anyway, once the English court realise he's better at kinging than his wife.
And yet he'll go to war because his wife will be bowed at first?
 
Which is my point: his rights are entirely dependent on his wife. He has no automatic right himself.

Not in the sixteenth century. What was the wife's was the husband's by law (church and secular), unless there was an entailment that gave her rights apart from him. This is NOT the case here. Princess Margaret Tudor wed King James IV of Scotland as treaty bait, there was never any discussion about "what happens if dad and bubba Hal die" in their marital contract. What's hers is HIS and that will include ENGLAND.
 
Would he fight for the title of King Regnant though? What other's are saying is that he's likely to end up the power behind the English crown because of his being older and more experienced than Margaret anyway. His son(s) will inherit England. Fighting the English nobility over a title will likely just backfire on him and could cost him England if the English nobles end up thinking James is too troublesome and that it'd be better to back the teenage Princess Mary. Scotland won't do well in a war against the English for the English crown. And if the Scots do win then they'll likely suffer severely.
 
Not in the sixteenth century. What was the wife's was the husband's by law (church and secular), unless there was an entailment that gave her rights apart from him. This is NOT the case here. Princess Margaret Tudor wed King James IV of Scotland as treaty bait, there was never any discussion about "what happens if dad and bubba Hal die" in their marital contract. What's hers is HIS and that will include ENGLAND.
Property yes, but rights and privileges of nobles were judged separately. In some cases this would mean royal assent. For the Crown this would include Parliament.
James will not be handed regnancy automatically, he will at the least have to argue for it in front of Parliament. Note that even 2 centuries later there had to be special Acts made to allow William to rule alongside Mary and succeed her.
 
Property yes, but rights and privileges of nobles were judged separately. In some cases this would mean royal assent. For the Crown this would include Parliament.
James will not be handed regnancy automatically, he will at the least have to argue for it in front of Parliament. Note that even 2 centuries later there had to be special Acts made to allow William to rule alongside Mary and succeed her.
And William was directly in the line of succession!
 
As for Mary, if James is married to Margaret and Margaret is the new Queen of England (and he will probably not be crowned King of England with her, despite what he wants) he's definitely going to keep Mary in his grasp at least until he has a few heirs with Margaret, as a spare bride and link to England. That leaves Mary unavailable until about 1512, with the birth of the ITL second surviving child, OTL's James V. Now Mary is free to marry, but for the greater good of the royal family. Funnily enough, her OTL marriage with Louis XII of France might occur, with a scondary betrothal between the Prince of Wales and the Princess Renee of France. However, it's when Louis eventually dies that things get interesting. Without her brother's OTL promise of freedom to marry and his overall love of her, Mary is not going to be allowed to marry Charles Brandon. Instead, she'll be trotted right back home and put back out there. Here, she'll probably be pushed for Charles V, but if that falls apart, here's what I'm suggesting: John III of Portugal. Think about it. In a scenario where his father goes off and marries his bride, the most beautiful woman in Europe, here he can marry a new bride, the other most beautiful woman in Europe and a non-relative to boot. Thus, we might even get a surviving bunch of children.
 
As for Mary, if James is married to Margaret and Margaret is the new Queen of England (and he will probably not be crowned King of England with her, despite what he wants) he's definitely going to keep Mary in his grasp at least until he has a few heirs with Margaret, as a spare bride and link to England. That leaves Mary unavailable until about 1512, with the birth of the ITL second surviving child, OTL's James V. Now Mary is free to marry, but for the greater good of the royal family. Funnily enough, her OTL marriage with Louis XII of France might occur, with a scondary betrothal between the Prince of Wales and the Princess Renee of France. However, it's when Louis eventually dies that things get interesting. Without her brother's OTL promise of freedom to marry and his overall love of her, Mary is not going to be allowed to marry Charles Brandon. Instead, she'll be trotted right back home and put back out there. Here, she'll probably be pushed for Charles V, but if that falls apart, here's what I'm suggesting: John III of Portugal. Think about it. In a scenario where his father goes off and marries his bride, the most beautiful woman in Europe, here he can marry a new bride, the other most beautiful woman in Europe and a non-relative to boot. Thus, we might even get a surviving bunch of children.
In this scenario Mary will be proposed/pushed to Manuel and John will marry Eleanor as age and status suggest this matches instead of the other way
 
In this scenario Mary will be proposed/pushed to Manuel and John will marry Eleanor as age and status suggest this matches instead of the other way

That's a definite possibility, but in the scenario, I'm suggesting that, like OTL, Manuel throws caution to the wind and marries Eleanor as OTL. Mary, who may or may not have been in talks to marry the Portuguese King, is still the right age to marry his son. Honestly, it'd be funny to me to see John have everything in place to marry the woman he's been focused on marrying for so long, only for it to happen as OTL and for him to be married off to his father's betrothed.
 
That's a definite possibility, but in the scenario, I'm suggesting that, like OTL, Manuel throws caution to the wind and marries Eleanor as OTL. Mary, who may or may not have been in talks to marry the Portuguese King, is still the right age to marry his son. Honestly, it'd be funny to me to see John have everything in place to marry the woman he's been focused on marrying for so long, only for it to happen as OTL and for him to be married off to his father's betrothed.
Mary is a little too old for John (she is six years older than him while Eleanor is three years and half older) and with another beautiful princess available Manuel will not feel the need to marry the niece of his two first wives and Charles likely will not offer Eleanor knowing he has no bride to offer for John if Catalina was already offered to England&Scotland
 
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