Henry VII - A new perspective

Luigie

Banned
Hi Jammy
Certainly interesting - that Frenchman you talk about i think i'll have to read his stuff.
Got to agree with the Anti-English Pro-Welsh bias though.
:):)
Philippe de Commynes was probably the only narrator of the time you could trust on English history. Unfortunately he never wrote enough English history. What he did write was very complementary to Henry VII.
 
I think you're taking an interesting view in pegging Henry VII as firmly 'Welsh'.
I mean, let's look at his parents.
Margaret of Beaufort, born in Bedfordshire.
Edmund Tudor, born in Hertfordshire.
My impression is that he was as 'Welsh' as the nobles in England were 'English' in the times immediately following the Conquest.

The other problem I have with your interpretation (well, other main one) is that you put the shiring of Wales as anti-Welsh. Wales had essentially been administered as a conquered territory for years; Henry VIII normalised the government by breaking it down into shires.

Finally, while Henry VII used his own standard, many of his supporters flew the Lancastrian Rose, with Henry being the last claimant on that side of the family, and I can't prove this but I'm pretty confident it was Henry VII, not his son, who created the joint Tudor Rose.

Unfortunately it's several years since I studied this in detail, so I don't have much source material to hand, and I've forgotten some of the details.

EDIT: could look up some of it, given time.
 
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BTW the difference between the more Welsh Henry VII and his more English son Henry VIII, somewhat resembles the difference between Charles V (I of Spain) and Phillip II of Spain; Charles V always remained a Burgundian (from Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands), but is son Phillip, who was raised at the court in Spain became more Spanish. So I guess that this wasn't a totally uncommon outcome.
 
Luigie.

Don't argue with me. Take it up with the Ricardians, who make a big song and dance about the Stanleys' "betrayal" of their royal patron saint - and also about the methods by which the Tudors successfully discouraged such behaviour.

I take your point about Richard's power base, and might add that having a power base mainly in the North made it darned difficult to garner support anywhere else, as Margaret of Anjou had learned to her cost in 1461. Fairly or unfairly, Northerners just weren't popular down south. When Henry VIII sounded off about "brute and beastly shires" he may have been unjust and narrow-minded, but he probably echoed the views of the folks in his own southern power base.
 
Hi vitemajoren
Henry's troops marched 240 miles in just 15 days in an era when armies marched at no more than 4 or 5 miles a day.
He was a brave man and his army was well trained and professional.
Lets see 1 mile is about 1,4 km yes? England is not that big so'
he must have covered most of England on that march, I assume
he went to London but from where? Wales? Scottish border?
Scotland was independent at that time or?
 
Looked at your article....................oh.


lots of Anti English Bias isn't there.


A few thing you should know, A commander in the war's of the Roses fought on foot, to not do so effected morale, look in other primary sources it mentions it.

it is not surprising that henry mentions st George after all his standard as well as Rhys ap Thomas's and every other " welsh " lord had st georges cross in the hoist, there was and is no country called Wales it is a Principality insde England, sorry but true.

I understand the richard iii thing as i re-enact wars of the Roses and fight for Lord Stanley, I have been abused and spat at at events, it's not fun but your stance is going the other way to far. Nationalisum is a heady wine don't get drunk with it
 

Luigie

Banned
Hi thedarkmaster
Thanks for your interesting post.
I am not anti English at all. Sorry if it comes across that way.
I mentioned earlier that history about Henry VII is very anti Welsh. I think it was John Milton (who was tasked with boosting the English cause for political reasons) who first said that Henry's troops were French convicts. He cited Philippe de Commynes as the source for his assumption.
Most other historians have quoted de Commynes as their source for making the same assumption. This is not a very honourable thing to do, quoting someone without reading it for themselves. This is clearly wrong. Because I have pointed this out does not make me anti English just pro truth.
In my research I read Philippe de Commynes he said nothing of the sort as I have pointed out in my web page.
I have taken note of some of your comments and will add them to my research pile, if I need to make any changes I will do so. Thanks again,
Best regards
 

Luigie

Banned
Hi the darkmaster
I understand the richard iii thing as i re-enact wars of the Roses and fight for Lord Stanley, I have been abused and spat at at events, it's not fun but your stance is going the other way to far. Nationalisum is a heady wine don't get drunk with it.
I'm very interested, where is it that you "re-enact Wars the of the Roses" I would love to come along and watch.
If you do not wish to state publicly, please send me a PM.
 
I agree that no evidence exists that Henry's french troops were convicts, evidence does point towards at least some of his troops being actual French Ordanance companies probably Breton in nature. It is possible that some may be Swiss French. A friend whom is a Tudor researcher ( more 16th than 15th cent ) has a list of french Captaynes and they look that way ( i will see if he will let me send it to you ), as for the re-enactment I'm having a year off due to a new baby in the house but in will get you some dates and places asap.


TIM
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
Hi All
I have written a Romantic Historical Novel about Henry VII. To do so I had to do a considerable amount of research.
In my rearch I proved beyond a shadow of doubt that he has been much maligned by historians purely for political reasons. Starting with John Milton who was under personal pressure to advance the English cause. [Google John Milton Wiki].
Please read my web page on Henry VII "Y Gwr Darogan" The man of Prophecy. http://www.tudor.vc/tudor/harritudur.html
I would welcome an informative discussion on the subject.
Luigie

It looks like your entire presence on this board is to promote your own "secret history" book. In the wrong topic.

Banned.
 
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