Renee will be Henry’s last wife or he will marry six times like OTL? I hope he will stop with her
Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings
- Thread starter Cate13
- Start date
Which just makes use of Awakener more curious. There's a tendency in the administrative classes of England and Scotland to prefer French or Classical sources for new words and ideas. It's why the antipapal churches were named Anglican and Presbyterian rather than English or Elder. No noble worth their class would claim to be an Awakener if they could claim to be a Resuscitant instead.
huh, well I missed that piece of history trivia. I guess it could be explained since the main ideal is reading the Bible in your native language they ended up choosing a name in their own language?
for ironies sake, there will probably be a sixth wife. But Renee will be around for a while
Perhaps. I'm a bit of a linguistic pedant at times!
Now I'm trying to think of a plausible reason why Awakening etc was chosen. It's a good name and if it had arisen from some local low level priest (or during OTL Wars of the 3 Kingdoms) it's perfectly believable!
Edit: how about towards the end of Henry's life he has a dream/visitation from St Edward where the phrase Awaken-etc is used a lot. This is used at his funeral and subsequent sermons so much it begets the official name. Afterall OTL Henry always considered himself Catholic, it was after he died his Church became less so.
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Hey, I appreciate the info. The allusions to awakening come from Prince Henry’s account, but for England the term could have first been coined by a lower level priest.
If you come up with an even better reason I would love to hear it!
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Section Thirty-Seven - late 1550s
“Late in the year fifteen fifty-five, Frederick Albert*, King Claimant of Denmark, would travel to Navarre to visit his aunt, Queen Christina. There he would meet Lady Eleanor Tudor, daughter of Prince Henry and Anne Boleyn. Without consulting his parents but with the approval of Prince Henry, the two would marry.
While Frederick Albert was undoubtedly enthralled with his new bride, the same couldn’t quite be said for Lady Eleanor. But all accounts, Lady Eleanor was more interested in the Crown of Denmark. It wasn’t until later that she would come to care for her husband.”
*son of Frederick II, Elector Palatine and Dorothea of Denmark, OTL none of their sons lived to adulthood
“Gregory Cromwell, Earl of Essex, would pass away late in 1558. 10 months later, his widow, Countess Elizabeth, would give birth to a son, who would be named Thomas. At the time, everyone tactfully agreed to pretend young Lord Thomas wasn’t a month late. But, for years, people have wondered at the paternity of Thomas Cromwell.
My thesis project will be to do DNA analysis of Lord Thomas’s decedents as well as confirmed decedents of the rumored fathers in an effort to answer the question of Thomas Cromwell’s paternity once and for all.
Already, Duke William Cromwell has agreed….”
“Interviewer: What was it like playing Tom?
Christian Bale: Well it was a real struggle to get into his head. On one hand he’s got that tremendous Tudor self-confidence and on the other hand he is weighted down by this question. Who is he? He’s very detached because of that.
Interviewer: And his relationship with his mother?
Christian Bale: It’s very complicated. In many ways she’s his sole human connect but he also resents her, resents her a lot.”
While Frederick Albert was undoubtedly enthralled with his new bride, the same couldn’t quite be said for Lady Eleanor. But all accounts, Lady Eleanor was more interested in the Crown of Denmark. It wasn’t until later that she would come to care for her husband.”
Quentin Lloyd, “Frederick Albert, Never King”
*son of Frederick II, Elector Palatine and Dorothea of Denmark, OTL none of their sons lived to adulthood
“Gregory Cromwell, Earl of Essex, would pass away late in 1558. 10 months later, his widow, Countess Elizabeth, would give birth to a son, who would be named Thomas. At the time, everyone tactfully agreed to pretend young Lord Thomas wasn’t a month late. But, for years, people have wondered at the paternity of Thomas Cromwell.
My thesis project will be to do DNA analysis of Lord Thomas’s decedents as well as confirmed decedents of the rumored fathers in an effort to answer the question of Thomas Cromwell’s paternity once and for all.
Already, Duke William Cromwell has agreed….”
“DNA Knows All” Doctoral proposal by Danica Anderson
“Interviewer: What was it like playing Tom?
Christian Bale: Well it was a real struggle to get into his head. On one hand he’s got that tremendous Tudor self-confidence and on the other hand he is weighted down by this question. Who is he? He’s very detached because of that.
Interviewer: And his relationship with his mother?
Christian Bale: It’s very complicated. In many ways she’s his sole human connect but he also resents her, resents her a lot.”
Interview of Actor Christian Bale, staring in Tom(1992)
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Section Thirty-Eight - late 1540s
“It wasn’t until the late fifteen-forties that the general population of England began to realize that an heir wasn’t forthcoming. Queen Kathryn and King Alexander had been married for over seven years, and not once had a pregnancy been announced. The first view years had been excused due to King Alexander’s absence from court, but over time there had been periods where the two resided together and nary a pregnancy.
It is now believed that continued prolonged periods of separation between Queen Kathryn and King Alexander were used to conceal Queen Kathryn’s fertility issues. It gave an official reason for the lack of an heir.”
“King Henri III of Navarre, by some accounts second in line to the English throne behind his father Prince Henry, officially excepted himself from English succession to preclude a union between Navarre and England late in the year 1547. It is believed that this was the first step in naming another heir. The possibilities for another heir were endlessly debated and we still don’t know who Kathryn might have named.
Some argued that Maria Tudor should be welcomed back to England as the heir of Queen Kathryn, or that one of her sons should be sent to be named Prince of Wales. Others argued that Prince Henry was the only option as a successor, but as he was Queen Kathryn’s grandfather not many expected him to outlive the Queen. Still others suggested Prince Charles, Prince Henry’s second eldest surviving son, or one of his daughters. As surprisingly popular suggestion was Countess Elizabeth’s eldest son Gregory Cromwell.
Young Lord Gregory had the benefit of being younger than the Queen, which Prince Henry and Prince Charles did were not, as well as definitively English, which Maria Tudor’s sons and Prince Charles’s daughters were not.”
It is now believed that continued prolonged periods of separation between Queen Kathryn and King Alexander were used to conceal Queen Kathryn’s fertility issues. It gave an official reason for the lack of an heir.”
Vanessa Corey, “Glorianna”
“King Henri III of Navarre, by some accounts second in line to the English throne behind his father Prince Henry, officially excepted himself from English succession to preclude a union between Navarre and England late in the year 1547. It is believed that this was the first step in naming another heir. The possibilities for another heir were endlessly debated and we still don’t know who Kathryn might have named.
Some argued that Maria Tudor should be welcomed back to England as the heir of Queen Kathryn, or that one of her sons should be sent to be named Prince of Wales. Others argued that Prince Henry was the only option as a successor, but as he was Queen Kathryn’s grandfather not many expected him to outlive the Queen. Still others suggested Prince Charles, Prince Henry’s second eldest surviving son, or one of his daughters. As surprisingly popular suggestion was Countess Elizabeth’s eldest son Gregory Cromwell.
Young Lord Gregory had the benefit of being younger than the Queen, which Prince Henry and Prince Charles did were not, as well as definitively English, which Maria Tudor’s sons and Prince Charles’s daughters were not.”
Paisley Jones, “The Balancing Beam, The Early Years of Queen Kathryn’s Reign”
Am I reading this right? Have we got a possibility of a King Cromwell? Now that might just be the world I didn't know I needed...
Don't be to quick to jump to conclusionsDid you miss this part?
Yes, yes I did. Drat.
Just saw this. I have the term awaken used a lot in his initial manifesto, for lack of a better word (Section 15). The thing got pretty popular, set to music and so on, so maybe even though the majority of the English Awakeners are on the affluent side, the term was still started by the lower class? Brought over by sailors or something?
ITL still Henry still considers himself Catholic. Notice it wasn't until he was out of the country that the Awakened Church of Navarre was formally organized. Henri III knew if his Dad was in town, he'd be a problem.
Section Thirty-Nine - mid 1540s
“Do to the dissolution of Spain, the ownership of the Spanish colonies was disputed through much of the first half of the 1500s. Both Castile and Aragon claimed title of the land in the Americas. King Alexander I would take advantage of this sometime in 1540s.
Using the uninhabited islands called the Bahamas [1] as a launching place, the English forces would slowly begin to take over many of the Spanish colonies in what is now Glorianna Domains using a combination of intimidation, force, and bribery. Many of the colonies had been without support for several years due to the war between Aragon and Castile and as such weren’t particularly inclined to put up a fight.
By 1549 the English has control of….”
[1] The Spanish had abandoned the Bahamas after they sold the entire population of the native people as slaves.
“The earliest accounts of English settlers heading west occurred in fifteen forty-two, but these settlers were heading to the unoccupied Bahamas. Because of the sandy soil, there was minimum farming done which left the lush forests untouched. The little farming that was done occurred on the island of New Providence. Instead the colonists depended on the sea for their substance.”
“It is unclear when Alexander Stewart first began the seizure of the Spanish colonies; he kept the information flow east under tight control. But eventually the news reached Europe where King Charles of Castile took it rather personally considering those colonies were among those ceded to Aragon in the peace treaty.
What’s more, Queen Kathryn had been in contact with King Ferdinand of Aragon and had purchased the colonies, retroactively authorizing the English seizures of the colonies. King Ferdinand had few other options then to allow the English possession, due to the long war with Castile he no longer had the resources to retake the colonies. In all probability, King Charles knew of Aragon’s current condition and had planned to take the colonies for Castile.”
Using the uninhabited islands called the Bahamas [1] as a launching place, the English forces would slowly begin to take over many of the Spanish colonies in what is now Glorianna Domains using a combination of intimidation, force, and bribery. Many of the colonies had been without support for several years due to the war between Aragon and Castile and as such weren’t particularly inclined to put up a fight.
By 1549 the English has control of….”
Lise Marie Peters, “Early Glorianna”
[1] The Spanish had abandoned the Bahamas after they sold the entire population of the native people as slaves.
“The earliest accounts of English settlers heading west occurred in fifteen forty-two, but these settlers were heading to the unoccupied Bahamas. Because of the sandy soil, there was minimum farming done which left the lush forests untouched. The little farming that was done occurred on the island of New Providence. Instead the colonists depended on the sea for their substance.”
Oliver Kent, “Mother Sea, The Marine Living of the Early English Colonists”
“It is unclear when Alexander Stewart first began the seizure of the Spanish colonies; he kept the information flow east under tight control. But eventually the news reached Europe where King Charles of Castile took it rather personally considering those colonies were among those ceded to Aragon in the peace treaty.
What’s more, Queen Kathryn had been in contact with King Ferdinand of Aragon and had purchased the colonies, retroactively authorizing the English seizures of the colonies. King Ferdinand had few other options then to allow the English possession, due to the long war with Castile he no longer had the resources to retake the colonies. In all probability, King Charles knew of Aragon’s current condition and had planned to take the colonies for Castile.”
Tammie Waltherson, “Ramp Up to the Second Succession War”
I'm not super sure. But I figure whichever, Castile or Aragon, did most of the work, the work happened while the countries were united. Now, since Ferdinand managed to have a son with Germaine de Foix the two countries have split again. Basically they are going through a really ugly divorce. And Aragon, the richer country, got the colonies mostly cause Castile was planning on taking them back later, but England snuck in in the confusion. If that makes sense.
No way... Spanish colonies were strictly Castilian and under Ferdinand and Isabella the rule of Castile and Aragon and the lands who belonged to either crown were kept strictly separated...
plus you are sure who Aragon was the richer country? I am not an expert of either country in that period but I had always the impression who Castile was the richer one
Castile was poorer until the colonial revenues began in earnest. Aragon was wealthier by basis of its Mediterranean holdings and trade. Castile also didn't really benefit on the revenues as it was frittered away in wars, church construction, just the general court life, etc...
Tudor Family in 1550
Henry VII Tudor, deceased King of England m. Elizabeth of York, deceased, Queen of England
*OTL Johann Frederick I, Elector of Saxony
**daughter of Cesare Borgia and Charlotte d’Albret, since Cesare Borgia didn’t die in 1507.
***son of Albert, Duke of Prussia and Dorothea of Denmark, OTL none of their sons lived to adulthood
Arthur I Tudor, deceased m. Infanta Catalina Trastamara of Aragon, age 65
1) Henry Tudor, deceased
2) Arthur Tudor, deceased
3) Margaret Tudor, deceased m. Francis Tudor, deceased
1) Kathryn I Tudor, age 27, Queen of England m. Alexander I Stewart, age 36, Duke of Ross
4) Henry Tudor, deceased
5) Henry Tudor, deceased
6) Mary Tudor, age 36, Queen Claimant of England m. Ferdinand I, age 47, Holy Roman Emperor
1) Elisabeth Hapsburg, age 19, Abbess of Nonnberg
2) Magdalena Hapsburg, deceased
3) Charles II Hapsburg, age 13
4) Catherine Hapsburg, deceased
5) Arthur Hapsburg, age 9
6) Helena Hapsburg, age 7
7) Henry Tudor, deceased
8) John Tudor, deceased
Margaret Tudor, age 61, m. a) James IV Stewart, deceased; b) James Hamilton, 1st Earl of Arran
1a) James Stewart, deceased
2a) Arthur Stewart, deceased
3a) James V Stewart, deceased, m. Louise Valois, age 35, Princes of France
1) Mary Stewart, deceased
2) Margaret Stewart, age 14, Princess of Scotland
3) James VI Stewart, age 11, King of Scotland and Ireland
4) Charles Stewart, age 10, Duke of Ross
5) Mary Stewart, age 8, Princess of Scotland
4a) Alexander Stewart, Duke of Ross m. Katheryn I Tudor, Queen of England
See Katheryn Tudor
5b) Elizabeth Hamilton, age 21, m. Gerald FitzGerald, 11th Earl of Kildare
1) James/Seamus FitzGerald, age 2
Henry II Tudor, age 59, Duke of York and Richmond m. a) Catherine of Navarre, deceased, Queen of Navarre; b) Anne Boleyn, deceased; c) Sybylle Von der Mark, deceased, Princess of Cleves; d) Mary Howard, divorced; e) Renee of France, age 40, Duchess of Chartres
1a) Henry III Tudor, age 46, King of Navarre m. Johanna Sophia/Jeanne Sophie Wettin, age 47, Princess of Saxony* age 47
1) Jeanne Tudor, deceased, Princess of Navarre m. René I, Viscount of Rohan
1) Anne de Rohan, age 6
2) Henry IV Tudor, age 28 m. Christina Oldenburg, age 29, Princess of Denmark
1) Antoine Tudor, age 7
3) Anne Sophie Tudor, age 25, Princess of Navarre m. Francis, Duke of Guise age 31
1) Henri of Guise, age 2
4) Francis Tudor, age 16, Prince of Navarre
2a) Francis Tudor, deceased, Duke of Calais m. Margaret Tudor, deceased, Princess of Wales
See Margaret Tudor
3a) Charles Tudor, age 39, Duke of Calais m. Leonora Borgia age 37**
1) Charlotte Tudor, age 19
2) Eleanor Tudor, age 3
4b) Elizabeth Tudor, age 28, m. Gregory Cromwell, deceased
1) Gregory Cromwell, age 7, Earl of Essex
2) Anne Cromwell, age 4
3) Thomas Cromwell, newborn
5b) Anne Tudor, deceased
6b) Eleanor Tudor, age 23 m. Frederick Albert, age 22, King Claimant of Denmark***
1) Margaret Wittelsbach, age 3
2) John Albert Wittelsbach, newborn
7c) Arthur Tudor, deceased
8c) John Tudor, age 11, Duke of Julich-Cleves-Berg
9d) Thomas Tudor, age 7
10d) Margaret Tudor, age 6
11e) Cecily Tudor, newborn
Mary Tudor, deceased, m. John III Aviz, age 48, King of Portugal
1) Beatrice Aviz, deceased, Infanta of Portugal
2) Maria Aviz, age 31, Infanta of Portugal m. Prince Francis Valois, deceased, Duke of Brittany
1) Marie Francoise Valois, age 13, Duchess of Brittany
3) John Emmanuel I Aviz, age 29, King of Portugal m. Caterina Maria Romula di Lorenzo de Medici, age 31
1) Philip Aviz, age 7
2) Sebastian I Aviz age 4
4) Anthony Aviz, age 26, Cardinal
5) Isabel Aviz, deceased, Infanta of Portugal
6) Maria Aviz, age 19, Infanta of Portugal
*OTL Johann Frederick I, Elector of Saxony
**daughter of Cesare Borgia and Charlotte d’Albret, since Cesare Borgia didn’t die in 1507.
***son of Albert, Duke of Prussia and Dorothea of Denmark, OTL none of their sons lived to adulthood
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Section Forty - mid 1550s
“Early in the fifteen fifties, the clamor for the succession to be addressed grew to a point where Queen Kathryn would act. After much deliberation the Succession Act was released. The Act removed Maria Tudor and her children from succession due to treason. But, no one was named as heir.”
“I have a child; his name is England.”
“A secure succession was a particularly large carrot to dangle, and Queen Kathryn did it very well. By hinting to one person or the other that one of the potential heirs was particularly favored, she kept the court on its toes. This kept the different factions from growing large enough to challenge the other. This was the same strategy that Queen Kathryn would employ to secure peace between the conflicting religious parties.”
“Around fifteen fifty, England would enter the what is now called the Golden Era, even though Queen Kathryn still hadn’t addressed succession. Queen Kathryn was quickly growing to be one of the most beloved monarchs of England’s history. King Alexander ensured that wealth continued to stream from Glorianna. Even the Catholics and the Awakeners began to peacefully coexist.”
Elizabeth Tudor, Duchess of Calais, “Kathryn Tudor”
“I have a child; his name is England.”
Historically this was Queen Kathryn Tudor’s response to questions about her bearing a child.
“A secure succession was a particularly large carrot to dangle, and Queen Kathryn did it very well. By hinting to one person or the other that one of the potential heirs was particularly favored, she kept the court on its toes. This kept the different factions from growing large enough to challenge the other. This was the same strategy that Queen Kathryn would employ to secure peace between the conflicting religious parties.”
Paisley Jones, “The Balancing Beam, The Early Years of Queen Kathryn’s Reign”
“Around fifteen fifty, England would enter the what is now called the Golden Era, even though Queen Kathryn still hadn’t addressed succession. Queen Kathryn was quickly growing to be one of the most beloved monarchs of England’s history. King Alexander ensured that wealth continued to stream from Glorianna. Even the Catholics and the Awakeners began to peacefully coexist.”
Thomas Nelson, “Kathryn Tudor and the Golden Era”
Section Forty-One - mid 1550s
“The Kingdom of Scotland and Ireland spent the better part of the fifteen fifties in rather odd position of pseudo acknowledging both Kathryn Tudor and Maria Tudor as Queen of England. It appears to have been motived by a combination of hedging their bets and King James VI having inherited his father’s issues with Alexander Stewart.
So, while Scotland dealt with Kathryn Tudor in regards to trading and other issues, ambassadors were also sent to Maria Tudor, and sometime in the mid fifteen fifties Princess Margaret Stewart, eldest sister of James VI, was betrothed to Charles Hapsburg, eldest son of Queen Claimant Maria Tudor.”
“Once Marie of Portugal was sure that L'autre Henri did not wish to marry his son to her daughter, she began to look for other suiters for her daughter the Duchess of Brittany. Several different grooms were considered, but in the end Marie of Portugal would choose Prince Francis Tudor, second son of King Henri III of Navarre.
The two would have a much more dignified marriage then Prince Francis’s elder brother.”
“Prince Charles Tudor, second eldest surviving son of Prince Henry Tudor, had been six-years old when his mother died and nine-years old when his father married Anne Boleyn. He would quickly come to view Anne Boleyn as a mother; in his journals he refers to her as ‘little mother.’ [1] It is probably because of this connection that he chose Thomas Boleyn, son of George Boleyn and Anne Boleyn’s nephew, as the husband of his eldest daughter and, thanks to an alteration of the patent granted by Queen Kathryn, the heir to the Duchy of Calais.
[1] Prince Charles would have surpassed Anne Boleyn in height by his eleventh birthday.
So, while Scotland dealt with Kathryn Tudor in regards to trading and other issues, ambassadors were also sent to Maria Tudor, and sometime in the mid fifteen fifties Princess Margaret Stewart, eldest sister of James VI, was betrothed to Charles Hapsburg, eldest son of Queen Claimant Maria Tudor.”
Oliver Gotham, “Arthur and the Throne of England, Scotland, and Ireland”
“Once Marie of Portugal was sure that L'autre Henri did not wish to marry his son to her daughter, she began to look for other suiters for her daughter the Duchess of Brittany. Several different grooms were considered, but in the end Marie of Portugal would choose Prince Francis Tudor, second son of King Henri III of Navarre.
The two would have a much more dignified marriage then Prince Francis’s elder brother.”
Karen Talls, “Marie of Portugal”
“Prince Charles Tudor, second eldest surviving son of Prince Henry Tudor, had been six-years old when his mother died and nine-years old when his father married Anne Boleyn. He would quickly come to view Anne Boleyn as a mother; in his journals he refers to her as ‘little mother.’ [1] It is probably because of this connection that he chose Thomas Boleyn, son of George Boleyn and Anne Boleyn’s nephew, as the husband of his eldest daughter and, thanks to an alteration of the patent granted by Queen Kathryn, the heir to the Duchy of Calais.
Karl Smith, “The Tudors and Calais”
[1] Prince Charles would have surpassed Anne Boleyn in height by his eleventh birthday.