Henry Tudor dies in the early 1480s - whose next?

Urcea

Let's say Henry Tudor, later Henry VII, dies before defeating Richard III. Who is the next Lancastrian claimant - can the movement continue?
 

Urcea

I would add it doesn't have to be an actual Lancastrian - Henry wasn't, after all - just somebody from that faction
 

Cornelis

Spelf said:
Let's say Henry Tudor, later Henry VII, dies before defeating Richard III. Who is the next Lancastrian claimant - can the movement continue?
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Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmoreland seems to be the senior english descendent to John of Gaunt. But while his father was a Lancastrian, he went along reasonably well with the Yorks.
 

Tyler96

Cornelis said:
Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmoreland seems to be the senior english descendent to John of Gaunt. But while his father was a Lancastrian, he went along reasonably well with the Yorks.
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Do you mean the 3rd Earl of Westmoreland? The 4th doesn't seem to have been born until 1498.

Other than that, there's just the Iberian (and other continental) descendants of John of Gaunt's legitimate daughters, whose ability and desire to have a go at the English throne is questionable, and assorted Beaufort descendants whose claims are just as flimsy as Tudor's, if not moreso.

If he's feeling sufficiently reckless Buckingham might have an open crack at the throne, as opposed to whatever he was doing in his revolt IOTL, but I doubt he'd have any more success than IOTL.

Opponents of Richard might try to plot something with Warwick instead. And given time Warbeck-esque impostors might show up and cause him trouble.
 
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Cornelis

Tyler96 said:
Do you mean the 3rd Earl of Westmoreland? The 4th doesn't seem to have been born until 1498.

Other than that, there's just the Iberian descendants of John of Gaunt's legitimate daughters, whose ability and desire to have a go at the English throne is questionable, and assorted Beaufort descendants whose claims are just as flimsy as Tudor's, if not moreso.

If he's feeling sufficiently reckless Buckingham might have an open crack at the throne, as opposed to whatever he was doing in his revolt IOTL, but I doubt he'd have any more success than IOTL.

Opponents of Richard might try to plot something with Warwick instead. And given time Warbeck-esque impostors might show up and cause him trouble.
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Yes, 4th, got mixed up with my numbers. The Portuguese princes were not serious candidates IMO, that is why I mentionned Westmoreland. The Beaufort were extinct by the early 1480', with only two daughters remaining. One was Henry Tudor's mother, so dead end here ; the other was Eleanor Beaufort, but she was married to a very obscure knight, Robert Spencer. Hardly King-material. Next in line after her and her daughters was Buckingham and his family, then the lords Audley, then a handful of country squires descended from the Beaufort.
 

Mikestone8

Find a Warbeck-style pretender and pass him off as Henry Tudor (how many Englishmen knew what HT looked like?) or even as the Lancastrian Prince of Wales. After all, if victorious he would presumably marry EoY, which would give him a claim to the throne whether he had one before or not.
 

mcdnab

Senior heirs in each line from John of Gaunt -

Heirs of Philippa of Lancaster

John II of Portugal and his sister Joanna were the senior heirs in the 1480s
Heirs of Elizabeth of Lancaster:

Ralph 3rd Earl of Westmorland was the senior heir general of Elizabeth of Lancaster - he served Richard III loyally - descended from the 2nd Duke of Exeter.
After him would be
Edmund Grey, 1st Earl of Kent and then Richard Fiennes, 7th Baron Dacre
Heirs of Catherine of Lancaster

Isabella of Castille

Heirs of John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset

Lady Margaret Beaufort Countess of Richmond
Eleanor Beaufort, Countess of Ormonde, Lady Spencer
Henry Stafford 2nd Duke of Buckingham
Margaret Dayrell Lady Audley
James III of Scotland
The female descendants of the Thomas de Courtenay, 5th/13th Earl of Devon

Heirs of Joan Beaufort Countess of Westmorland

Edward Plantagenet Earl of Warwick and his sister Margaret
Anne Neville Duchess of Gloucester
George Neville Duke of Bedford and his numerous sisters
Alice Neville, Baroness FitzHugh
Katherine Neville, Baroness Hastings
George Stanley heir to the Earl of Derby
Margaret Neville Countess of Oxford
Anthony Neville, Lord Grey
Richard Neville, 2nd Baron Latimer
Sir George Nevill who would become 4th and 2nd Baron Bergavenny
Ralph Greystoke, 5th Baron Greystoke
Katherine Neville Duchess of Norfolk
Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland
Henry Stafford, the 2nd Duke of Buckingham
Issue of Edward IV (through descent from Cecily Neville)
Edward Earl of Warwick and his sister
Richard Duke of Gloucester
Anne St Leger
Elizabeth Duchess of Suffolk and issue
Margaret Duchess of Burgundy
 

desmirelle

Why would there be a Henry Tudor imposter? The dude was just a potential claimant to the throne through his mama. The imposters are all pretending to be Richard, Duke of York.

With no Henry Tudor, who is going after the throne? Richard is King, his brother's children bastards and he'll take a new wife and have more children.
 

Mikestone8

desmirelle said:
Why would there be a Henry Tudor imposter? The dude was just a potential claimant to the throne through his mama. The imposters are all pretending to be Richard, Duke of York.
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Ok, then the impostor claims to be RoY (or Warwick) instead (though I thought the OP was after alternative Lancastrian pretenders).

Those who didn't fancy the Woodvilles turned to Richard III. Those who didn't fancy Richard turned to Henry Tudor. Those who didn't fancy Henry turned to Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck. If you didn't fancy the incumbent, any pretender would do, and if no authentic one could be found then a phoney would have to serve.
 
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