Henry never utters 'who will rid me of this turbulent priest'....

[KillerT]

Henry II is for me one of Englands better monarchs. This was a man of action, a man of ideas and energy. He laid the basis of English Common Law which is why he happens to be one of my heroes. Henry's main problem was his temper. Thomas Becket was a good friend to Henry like Henry he enjoyed the hunt, the high life and was just as intelligent. Henry thought he had the ideal candidate for Archbishop of Canterbury and therefore de facto leader of the Church in England. Then surely wth ones best and most trusted friend in control of the Church Henry could proceed with all his reforms...In reality and most unfortunately things didn't quite work out that way-Henry suddenly found that Thomas seemed to have found his vocation and that Thomas had taken to wearing hair shirts such was his religious fervour. Imagine though that Thomas turns out to be the Archbish that Henry wanted...so now priests can be proescuted just as any commoner....

thoughts? Any butterflies?

 

[Space Oddity]

Except that for all we know he didn't. It's something of a legend.

Hell, there's a theory that the actual mind behind Becket's murder was Henry the Young King, who'd been having his own quarrel with the Archbishop. A good portion of this theory has to do with the fact that the knights who killed Becket happened to be members of the Young King's retinue. And that the Young King then began loudly mourning Thomas, saying that he was such a good man, who'd done more kindnesses to him then his father ever had--which led to the the Young King starting up his rebellion...

 

[Paladin]

A better POD is what if Thomas never becomes Archbishop to begin with? He was a rather unlikely candidate, and wasn't too keen on it, even outright rejecting the offer the first time around. Put someone more...pliable and less stubborn in his place, and he's still alive, and Henry gets what he wants.

 

[Mikestone8]

A better POD is what if Thomas never becomes Archbishop to begin with? He was a rather unlikely candidate, and wasn't too keen on it, even outright rejecting the offer the first time around. Put someone more...pliable and less stubborn in his place, and he's still alive, and Henry gets what he wants.

Iirc the Bishop of London, Gilbert Foliot, was the "front runner" until Becket got the nod. While not exactly a puppet, he was farm more of a political animal than Becket, and might have been able to cut a deal with Henry.

 

[KillerT]

Well I was hoping for a bit more maybe something along the lines that the resultant knock on leads to a renaissance in England (not necessarily of the arts perhaps that of the mind in terms of philosophy perhaps resulting in a reformation of sorts...)

 

[archaeogeek]

Well I was hoping for a bit more maybe something along the lines that the resultant knock on leads to a renaissance in England (not necessarily of the arts perhaps that of the mind in terms of philosophy perhaps resulting in a reformation of sorts...)

Honestly I'm not quite sure how it would; Beckett was an important person but he was ultimately only one man...

 

[Space Oddity]

Hell, Becket really wasn't that good a guy. Popular legend aside, he managed to alienate everyone during the course of his bizarre little crusade. Even the Pope and the King of France started leaning on him to give it up. What got him a sainthood was being killed.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Hell, Becket really wasn't that good a guy. Popular legend aside, he managed to alienate everyone during the course of his bizarre little crusade. Even the Pope and the King of France started leaning on him to give it up. What got him a sainthood was being killed.

Martyrdom really gives some people a leg up...

And when you manage to alienate even the Pope himself, you're screwed.

 

[Space Oddity]

Yep. Fun fact--twice Becket 'excommunicated' Foliot. In both cases, Foliot appealed to the Pope and noted that said excommunications were illegal, as the Archibishop of Canterbury wasn't allowed to excommunicate bishops by fiat. And the Pope agreed with him.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Yep. Fun fact--twice Becket 'excommunicated' Foliot. In both cases, Foliot appealed to the Pope and noted that said excommunications were illegal, as the Archibishop of Canterbury wasn't allowed to excommunicate bishops by fiat. And the Pope agreed with him.

Looks like Tommy got a wee bit too big for his britches.

 

[KillerT]

My basic idea was that Beckett was basically a self obsessed twat who when given the role of Archbish like many many people who suddenly discover religion often sink into that certain arsy attitude-I'm sure you have all encountered that certain smug self satisfied bigotry before now? Lets imagine instead that Beckett instead continues to be light hearted and progressive-where does this sense of close open minded co-operation between church and state end up? Come on now folks.....

 

[archaeogeek]

Yep. Fun fact--twice Becket 'excommunicated' Foliot. In both cases, Foliot appealed to the Pope and noted that said excommunications were illegal, as the Archibishop of Canterbury wasn't allowed to excommunicate bishops by fiat. And the Pope agreed with him.

So basically without the martyrdom he goes down in history as a rather tyrannical meddlesome priest - also honestly yes, all I've read on the Plantagenet period seems to indicate that the taste of power that came with becoming primate of England changed the man significantly, for the worse.
Reminds me of another english martyr whose legend is certainly far more savoury than the real man.

 

[Space Oddity]

Would that be... ahem...

*Robin Hood Theme Begins To Play*

Thomas More, Thomas More, he'll burn a heretic,
Thomas More, Thomas More, something of a dick.
Wasn't that good a Lord Chancellor
Thomas More, Thomas More, Thomas More...

 

[archaeogeek]

Would that be... ahem...

*Robin Hood Theme Begins To Play*

Thomas More, Thomas More, he'll burn a heretic,
Thomas More, Thomas More, something of a dick.
Wasn't that good a Lord Chacellor
Thomas More, Thomas More, Thomas More...

And we have a winner for picking up the most obvious late renaissance historical innuendo ever - not to say that the Mayer alt-history pieces about More are not awesomely well written

 

[Francisco Cojuanco]

Would that be... ahem...

*Robin Hood Theme Begins To Play*

Thomas More, Thomas More, he'll burn a heretic,
Thomas More, Thomas More, something of a dick.
Wasn't that good a Lord Chancellor
Thomas More, Thomas More, Thomas More...

Though to be honest, it was pretty par for the course at the time. Heresy... was not a good thing to be found guilty of. Even in a Protestant country.