Henry I of England has a second son, consequences?

VVD0D95

Banned
Edward is a traditionally Anglo-Saxon name that only came back into vogue as a name for English royalty because Henry III was a big fan of Edward the Confessor. I'm not sure Richard would be giving his kids Anglo-Saxon names like Edward or Edmund (I don't what inspired Henry III to name his second son that...).

A cursory search throws up numerous theories for how the name Lionel came about as a name for the Duke of Clarence either because Edward III was a fan of the character Sir Lionel in the Arthurian mythos or because the coat of arms Hainalt (Lionel of Antwerp's mother's family) was lions or because his father was 'the Lion of England' (making Lionel, a 'little lion'). None of these would apply for Richard.

Sweeping through the previous generations of the Norman family, there's obviously Robert (though if William Clito is still around and causing trouble Richard mightn't want to name his heir after Clito's father; though Richard could name him in honour of his half-brother Gloucester), a Mauger, a Geoffrey and a Hugh/Hugues. There's also Godfrey, from Adeliza's family, which was suggested as a name for Richard himself upthread.

As for Eleanor of Aquitaine- William X might live longer or have a son (hell Eleanor herself could be born male ITTL).

If she does still become Duchess of Aquitaine in her right then the French royal family will still try to snatch her up (and this will facilitated if she's under age when she succeeds and her father still names the King as her guardian). Worth noting that French royal dynamics could be radically different ITTL- Louis VII's elder brother Philip might live and ascend the throne.

Hmm interesting, I think seeing a couple of kids named either Hugh, Geoffrey or Godfrey would be very interesting. Is Richard or Godfrey more likely as a name for the man himself?

And this is very true, I do think keeping Eleanor as Duchess of Aquitaine would be good, to see the consequences if Fitzempress-if he does indeed exist- marries her in this timeline.

And seeing how Philip surviving influences relations, considering his rather turbulent personality will be fascinating. Some time for war
 
Hmm interesting, I think seeing a couple of kids named either Hugh, Geoffrey or Godfrey would be very interesting. Is Richard or Godfrey more likely as a name for the man himself?

And this is very true, I do think keeping Eleanor as Duchess of Aquitaine would be good, to see the consequences if Fitzempress-if he does indeed exist- marries her in this timeline.

And seeing how Philip surviving influences relations, considering his rather turbulent personality will be fascinating. Some time for war

But there's a decent chance Eleanor has sons by her first marriage ITTL, which likely means no annulment and no marriage to the much younger Fitzempress (who will be significantly less powerful ITTL- no Anarchy means his father hasn't conquered Normandy).

Would Louis VI eye Eleanor for his eldest son? Because IOTL Eleanor only entered royal custody in 1137, by which stage Philip would be 20-21- if Phil's already been married to someone else and Eleanor gets married to one of his younger brothers that'd likely be a cause of fraternal tension.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
But there's a decent chance Eleanor has sons by her first marriage ITTL, which likely means no annulment and no marriage to the much younger Fitzempress (who will be significantly less powerful ITTL- no Anarchy means his father hasn't conquered Normandy).

Would Louis VI eye Eleanor for his eldest son? Because IOTL Eleanor only entered royal custody in 1137, by which stage Philip would be 20-21- if Phil's already been married to someone else and Eleanor gets married to one of his younger brothers that'd likely be a cause of fraternal tension.

Hmm this is very true. I think that would be quite interesting to see, Eleanor married to Louis as otl, but with Philip as King, now that would definitely cause issues, perhaps a mini war?
 
Hmm this is very true. I think that would be quite interesting to see, Eleanor married to Louis as otl, but with Philip as King, now that would definitely cause issues, perhaps a mini war?

Does Louis have the temperament to cause trouble for his elder brother?
 
Alright interesting, so first off, Matilda marrying Geoffrey of Anjou?
Let's think.
- Adeliza successfully bears a son sometime 1120-1125
- there's still an issue with Anjou due to Matilde d'Anjou's dowry and a small Norman rebellion that Henry puts down
- 1125 Matilda's (Henry's daughter) husband the Emperor dies and she returns to England
- 1127 Charles of Flanders dies and Henry and King Louis have their proxy war with Louis backing William Clito as Count.
Will Henry marry Mathilda to Fulk's son Geoffrey as OTL or would Thierry of Alsace be a better gamble?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Let's think.
- Adeliza successfully bears a son sometime 1120-1125
- there's still an issue with Anjou due to Matilde d'Anjou's dowry and a small Norman rebellion that Henry puts down
- 1125 Matilda's (Henry's daughter) husband the Emperor dies and she returns to England
- 1127 Charles of Flanders dies and Henry and King Louis have their proxy war with Louis backing William Clito as Count.
Will Henry marry Mathilda to Fulk's son Geoffrey as OTL or would Thierry of Alsace be a better gamble?

Hmm, I imagine he might look to Flanders, though the issue of the dowry makes me think Matilda and Geoffrey marrying so as to cancel that out makes the most sense. Henry's son could always marry a daughter of Thierry of Alsace.
 
Hmm, I imagine he might look to Flanders, though the issue of the dowry makes me think Matilda and Geoffrey marrying so as to cancel that out makes the most sense. Henry's son could always marry a daughter of Thierry of Alsace.
Yeah, much as I really like the idea of Matilda and Thierry, marrying her to Geoffrey solves Henry's southern border more than a closer alliance with Thierry would do.
So we'll assume Matilda is betrothed to Geoffrey as per oTL.
However they did briefly separate in 1130/31 (when Fulk is in Jerusalem) so if Thierry is a better offer then an annulment might be possible as no kids.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Yeah, much as I really like the idea of Matilda and Thierry, marrying her to Geoffrey solves Henry's southern border more than a closer alliance with Thierry would do.
So we'll assume Matilda is betrothed to Geoffrey as per oTL.
However they did briefly separate in 1130/31 (when Fulk is in Jerusalem) so if Thierry is a better offer then an annulment might be possible as no kids.

Hmm this is very true, and with there being less pressure of on Matilda, due to the presence of her younger brother, she might actually push for that.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Cool. And Thierry's first wife died 1132. Convenient ;)
Aha very convenient. This does lead to the question, who does Geoffrey marry as his second wife, if at all.

Though in England, I suppose Henry would be happy to have a part of his northern border protected?
 
Aha very convenient. This does lead to the question, who does Geoffrey marry as his second wife, if at all.

Though in England, I suppose Henry would be happy to have a part of his northern border protected?

Trying to think of someone. A quick glance doesn't show any available French princesses and Eleanor of Aquitaine is still too young. Bertha of Britanny?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Trying to think of someone. A quick glance doesn't show any available French princesses and Eleanor of Aquitaine is still too young. Bertha of Britanny?

Hmm, she was born in 1125, so likely they'd need to wait until around 1140, before properly marrying.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
On the subject of William Clito, is it likely that he does just remain a no hope Prince, constantly roaming around trying to make his fortune?
 
If Matilda still marries the Count of Anjou, then our Richard I of England could marry Laurette of Flanders, daughter of the Count of Flanders and his first wife. She has no set age, at least I can't find one, so she could probably be born between 1120-1132.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
If Matilda still marries the Count of Anjou, then our Richard I of England could marry Laurette of Flanders, daughter of the Count of Flanders and his first wife. She has no set age, at least I can't find one, so she could probably be born between 1120-1132.
That sounds good, gives him two solid bases.
 
On the subject of William Clito, is it likely that he does just remain a no hope Prince, constantly roaming around trying to make his fortune?

I think Louis is still going to prefer him as Count of Flanders in his proxy war against Henry I. He'll either succeed or die in battle similar to OTL.
If he succeeds then Henry and then Richard will need to ensure a good alliance to counter any claims against Normandy or England.
If he dies childless then we have roughly OTL situation.

If Matilda still marries the Count of Anjou, then our Richard I of England could marry Laurette of Flanders, daughter of the Count of Flanders and his first wife. She has no set age, at least I can't find one, so she could probably be born between 1120-1132.

That sounds good, gives him two solid bases.

I quite like that.
It also provides an option for Thierry to marry Matilda if her estrangement as OTL leads to an ATL annulment but would still allow Thierry to marry Sybilla d'Anjou (Clito's widow and daughter of Fulk) when he heads to Outremer if a reconciliation is useful.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I think Louis is still going to prefer him as Count of Flanders in his proxy war against Henry I. He'll either succeed or die in battle similar to OTL.
If he succeeds then Henry and then Richard will need to ensure a good alliance to counter any claims against Normandy or England.
If he dies childless then we have roughly OTL situation.





I quite like that.
It also provides an option for Thierry to marry Matilda if her estrangement as OTL leads to an ATL annulment but would still allow Thierry to marry Sybilla d'Anjou (Clito's widow and daughter of Fulk) when he heads to Outremer if a reconciliation is useful.

Very true, in regards to Clito, how likely was his success?
 
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