Henry I of England has a second son, consequences?

Hmm interesting, how about Richard Godfrey Adelin?

And alright interesting, I agree, he could be accompanying his father on business, and when his father falls ill, head back to London accompanied by his mother and perhaps his cousin as well, then Stephen swoops in and takes power, through forgery etc.
 
Also, in regards to whom Richard might marry, who would be the most suitable options? David I of Scotland had two daughters by his wife Maud, might one of them make a good marriage for the new King?
 
In terms of marriages, it depends on how old Richard is when he becomes King, who his Regent is, how much power/influence the Regent has over the realm, what alliances would be seen as valuable, and who is actually available to be married in the first place.

A Scottish match would probably be a good bet, but a lot of English Kings in this era seem to have married French noblewomen of powerful families to try and counteract the threat of the Kings of France seizing back their lands in France. Plus an alliance with the Holy Roman Emperor is another means to counteract France.


A thought on the name, while double-names did exist in this era (William Adelin is an example), I don't think that there were many (if any) people with three names running around at this time.

Though I could totally see Richard being named Richard Adelin by his father, a means to honor William's memory without naming the lad William. But even the Adelin name would be revealing of how Henry I would see his 'miracle son', he's a replacement for his brother in pretty much everything. As a result I can see Richard I of England (not sure if he'd reign with a double name or not, for now I will assume not) growing up a gloomy fellow, especially if Henry I dies at a similar time to RL and the unavoidable power struggle over the Regency happens even while the body is still warm.

Richard the Grim has an alliterative ring to it...

And like other Princes of his era, he'd be raised to be a Warrior-King... And since Henry I is described as short, stocky and barrel-chested and having black hair, Richard Adelin would be an odd combination of Stannis and Robert Baratheon from Game of Thrones.
 
In terms of marriages, it depends on how old Richard is when he becomes King, who his Regent is, how much power/influence the Regent has over the realm, what alliances would be seen as valuable, and who is actually available to be married in the first place.

A Scottish match would probably be a good bet, but a lot of English Kings in this era seem to have married French noblewomen of powerful families to try and counteract the threat of the Kings of France seizing back their lands in France. Plus an alliance with the Holy Roman Emperor is another means to counteract France.


A thought on the name, while double-names did exist in this era (William Adelin is an example), I don't think that there were many (if any) people with three names running around at this time.

Though I could totally see Richard being named Richard Adelin by his father, a means to honor William's memory without naming the lad William. But even the Adelin name would be revealing of how Henry I would see his 'miracle son', he's a replacement for his brother in pretty much everything. As a result I can see Richard I of England (not sure if he'd reign with a double name or not, for now I will assume not) growing up a gloomy fellow, especially if Henry I dies at a similar time to RL and the unavoidable power struggle over the Regency happens even while the body is still warm.

Richard the Grim has an alliterative ring to it...

And like other Princes of his era, he'd be raised to be a Warrior-King... And since Henry I is described as short, stocky and barrel-chested and having black hair, Richard Adelin would be an odd combination of Stannis and Robert Baratheon from Game of Thrones.

Alright very true, for the dramatical effect, Richard Adelin sounds good, having him be quite grim in that regard and also because of the regency struggles sounds very good.

I imagine during the regency, Stephen might try and get the boy to marry one of his nieces if any are of marriageable age, or perhaps Margaret of Flanders?
 
For my tuppence I would say Robert or Richard for the second son.
I would say that Mathilda could be married off to Thierry of Flanders since Henry was one of his allies/supporters for the County of Flanders against William Clito. That would create an interesting counter balance during the regency for anyone opposing Robert/Richard I.
Noone's yet mentioned Stephen's older brother Theobald/Thibaud of Blois & Champagne who missed out claiming England as Stephan got to London before him thanks to their younger brother Henry who was Bishop of Winchester. Interestingly Henry was apparently scheming for the creation of western English/British Archdiocese with himself as Archbishop above Canterbury!
 
For my tuppence I would say Robert or Richard for the second son.
I would say that Mathilda could be married off to Thierry of Flanders since Henry was one of his allies/supporters for the County of Flanders against William Clito. That would create an interesting counter balance during the regency for anyone opposing Robert/Richard I.
Noone's yet mentioned Stephen's older brother Theobald/Thibaud of Blois & Champagne who missed out claiming England as Stephan got to London before him thanks to their younger brother Henry who was Bishop of Winchester. Interestingly Henry was apparently scheming for the creation of western English/British Archdiocese with himself as Archbishop above Canterbury!

Oh now that's interesting, both that a marriage to Thierry of Flanders might supercede any need for reparations with Fulk, and with the potential for something above Canterbury, how would that have worked?
 
Oh now that's interesting, both that a marriage to Thierry of Flanders might supercede any need for reparations with Fulk, and with the potential for something above Canterbury, how would that have worked?
Well, I think Henry overreached himself during the Anarchy trying to play both sides so with the lack of one while he may succeed getting an Archdiocese - with Stephen's support - I suspect his bloodline might count against him in raising it above Canterbury. 3 Archbishops however would create an interesting time for the Church's relations with the Norman dynasty!
The match of Matilda with Thierry will probably only work if Robert/Richard is himself married to one of Fulk's daughters as was agreed for William, otherwise the Norman border still needs securing.
 
Very true on both counts.

Did fulk have a daughter of age?
Assuming William's widow Matilda still becomes a nun, then her sister Sybilla who married Thierry of Flanders OTL is available.

EDIT: hmm she might be a bit old for the new Prince!
Perhaps a promise to marry a daughter of Geoffrey, whoever he marries, would be enough?
 
Assuming William's widow Matilda still becomes a nun, then her sister Sybilla who married Thierry of Flanders OTL is available.

EDIT: hmm she might be a bit old for the new Prince!
Perhaps a promise to marry a daughter of Geoffrey, whoever he marries, would be enough?

As in old Geoffrey of Anjou?
 
Also, on another front, the boy's mother Adeliza remarried otl, here, would the same occur, or would she remain single for the duration of her son's minority, to be better able to aid him
 
Also, on another front, the boy's mother Adeliza remarried otl, here, would the same occur, or would she remain single for the duration of her son's minority, to be better able to aid him

That would depend on how strong a position she is in when Henry I dies, if the Regency Council that he sets up manages to stay in place then she'll probably stay to help her son, but if someone (likely Stephen) manages to seize the initiative first and gets the Regency completely, Adeliza will find herself being sent back home to her family and married off, regardless of her own personal wishes.

The last thing someone seizing a Regency can afford is to have someone like the King's Mother with A) Instant Access to the King, and B) Serve as a rallying point for discontented nobility.
 
That would depend on how strong a position she is in when Henry I dies, if the Regency Council that he sets up manages to stay in place then she'll probably stay to help her son, but if someone (likely Stephen) manages to seize the initiative first and gets the Regency completely, Adeliza will find herself being sent back home to her family and married off, regardless of her own personal wishes.

The last thing someone seizing a Regency can afford is to have someone like the King's Mother with A) Instant Access to the King, and B) Serve as a rallying point for discontented nobility.

Very true, I guess, the question I have now for you all, is this, what would be more interesting, Stephen seizing the regency immediately, or Adeliza having some time with her son?
 
<snip>
A thought on the name, while double-names did exist in this era (William Adelin is an example), I don't think that there were many (if any) people with three names running around at this time.

Though I could totally see Richard being named Richard Adelin by his father, a means to honor William's memory without naming the lad William. But even the Adelin name would be revealing of how Henry I would see his 'miracle son', he's a replacement for his brother in pretty much everything. As a result I can see Richard I of England (not sure if he'd reign with a double name or not, for now I will assume not)
<snip>

They were hardly the most innovative bunch when it came to naming their children, hence I'm thinking it likely to be Richard... and he will most likely be known as Richard Adelin, not in honour of his dead brother but because he is the heir to the throne of England. Adelin was a corruption of the old English ætheling... Henry wanted to make sure his son (or sons in this case) were seen as the proper and legitimate heir(s) to England.
 
They were hardly the most innovative bunch when it came to naming their children, hence I'm thinking it likely to be Richard... and he will most likely be known as Richard Adelin, not in honour of his dead brother but because he is the heir to the throne of England. Adelin was a corruption of the old English ætheling... Henry wanted to make sure his son (or sons in this case) were seen as the proper and legitimate heir(s) to England.

This is true. Any other suggestions?
 
A thought, if/when Richard makes it to adulthood and has children of his own, I could see him privately deciding not to name his sons either Henry or William, the later because Richard himself was raised as a replacement for William Adelin and would want to make his own mark on the world as much as possible, and he would skip naming a son Henry because I can't imagine Richard having the happiest of childhoods due to King Henry making it clear that Richard is a 'miracle' replacement for someone else, and not having value as a person in his own right.

So I could see the English/Norman royal family getting a touch more experimental in the names given out to their children, at least during Richard's lifetime.
 
A thought, if/when Richard makes it to adulthood and has children of his own, I could see him privately deciding not to name his sons either Henry or William, the later because Richard himself was raised as a replacement for William Adelin and would want to make his own mark on the world as much as possible, and he would skip naming a son Henry because I can't imagine Richard having the happiest of childhoods due to King Henry making it clear that Richard is a 'miracle' replacement for someone else, and not having value as a person in his own right.

So I could see the English/Norman royal family getting a touch more experimental in the names given out to their children, at least during Richard's lifetime.

Oh very interesting, something along the lines of Edward, Edmund, Lionel that sort of thing? I do imagine Richard might look to build up alliances with Geoffrey of Anjou and his sister, if their marriage still goes ahead, and potentially might look to snap up Eleanor of Aquitaine if the urge strikes?
 
Ok so let's say Adeliza conceives on the wedding night, getting the tail end of he husband's fertile years, and has little Richard Adelin is born around mid to late October. Thus, he's barely 14 when he ascends to the throne, but he probably isn't put to a Regency, but "advised". Unless he looks particularly young, he's probably going to be seen as a medieval man, and thus capable of rule. His mother probably doesn't remarry immediately, however, and may marry within the court to stay with her son.

Now Richard Adelin doesn't necessarily have to be an only child, with the pressures of the hope of a dynasty on his shoulders. If Adeliza and Henry are match enough for one child, they can have two or three quite easily. With a brother of two, Richard goes from blessed only child to part of a family unit, and thus probably escapes the worst of the pressure and doesn't hate his father so much. However, if he doesn't have any brothers or siblings at all through his mother, then he is going to suffer from the weight of expectations. How that weight holds will depend on his personality and the support system of his family, in particular his mother. Matilda probably remarries ITL along the same lines as OTL, or perhaps closer to the throne, depending on when it happens. Thus, she might act as a support too.

Now I don't think Eleanor of Aquitaine will work. She's probably still going to marry to the King of France ITL, and by the time that goes Richard is going to have been married off, particularly without male siblings. But, I could see a match between Richard I of England and Constance Capet, Princess of France. Other options include a daughter of Stephan of Blois, Constance of Antioch, Margaret of Navarre, Matilda of Savoy, Eudoxia of Kiev, Richeza of Poland and Berengaria of Barcelona. I personally think that Constance of France is the most likely option, although Constance of Antioch might be interesting.
 
Ok so let's say Adeliza conceives on the wedding night, getting the tail end of he husband's fertile years, and has little Richard Adelin is born around mid to late October. Thus, he's barely 14 when he ascends to the throne, but he probably isn't put to a Regency, but "advised". Unless he looks particularly young, he's probably going to be seen as a medieval man, and thus capable of rule. His mother probably doesn't remarry immediately, however, and may marry within the court to stay with her son.

Now Richard Adelin doesn't necessarily have to be an only child, with the pressures of the hope of a dynasty on his shoulders. If Adeliza and Henry are match enough for one child, they can have two or three quite easily. With a brother of two, Richard goes from blessed only child to part of a family unit, and thus probably escapes the worst of the pressure and doesn't hate his father so much. However, if he doesn't have any brothers or siblings at all through his mother, then he is going to suffer from the weight of expectations. How that weight holds will depend on his personality and the support system of his family, in particular his mother. Matilda probably remarries ITL along the same lines as OTL, or perhaps closer to the throne, depending on when it happens. Thus, she might act as a support too.

Now I don't think Eleanor of Aquitaine will work. She's probably still going to marry to the King of France ITL, and by the time that goes Richard is going to have been married off, particularly without male siblings. But, I could see a match between Richard I of England and Constance Capet, Princess of France. Other options include a daughter of Stephan of Blois, Constance of Antioch, Margaret of Navarre, Matilda of Savoy, Eudoxia of Kiev, Richeza of Poland and Berengaria of Barcelona. I personally think that Constance of France is the most likely option, although Constance of Antioch might be interesting.

Alright interesting, I think Constance of France, daughter of Louis VI seems the most likely. Probably arranged as a way to bring peace between Henry and Louis. Keeping it to the one child would make things interesting I suppose, considering the burden he'd be under. As for his mother, could we see her marry William D'Aubigny as per otl?
 
Oh very interesting, something along the lines of Edward, Edmund, Lionel that sort of thing? I do imagine Richard might look to build up alliances with Geoffrey of Anjou and his sister, if their marriage still goes ahead, and potentially might look to snap up Eleanor of Aquitaine if the urge strikes?

Edward is a traditionally Anglo-Saxon name that only came back into vogue as a name for English royalty because Henry III was a big fan of Edward the Confessor. I'm not sure Richard would be giving his kids Anglo-Saxon names like Edward or Edmund (I don't what inspired Henry III to name his second son that...).

A cursory search throws up numerous theories for how the name Lionel came about as a name for the Duke of Clarence either because Edward III was a fan of the character Sir Lionel in the Arthurian mythos or because the coat of arms Hainalt (Lionel of Antwerp's mother's family) was lions or because his father was 'the Lion of England' (making Lionel, a 'little lion'). None of these would apply for Richard.

Sweeping through the previous generations of the Norman family, there's obviously Robert (though if William Clito is still around and causing trouble Richard mightn't want to name his heir after Clito's father; though Richard could name him in honour of his half-brother Gloucester), a Mauger, a Geoffrey and a Hugh/Hugues. There's also Godfrey, from Adeliza's family, which was suggested as a name for Richard himself upthread.

As for Eleanor of Aquitaine- William X might live longer or have a son (hell Eleanor herself could be born male ITTL).

If she does still become Duchess of Aquitaine in her right then the French royal family will still try to snatch her up (and this will facilitated if she's under age when she succeeds and her father still names the King as her guardian). Worth noting that French royal dynamics could be radically different ITTL- Louis VII's elder brother Philip might live and ascend the throne.
 
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