Henry I of England has a second son, consequences?

As the thread title says, what consequences would there be if Henry I had a second son from either his first wife or, after the white ship disaster his second wife?

In the former are the chances of the white ship disaster negated by the birth of a second son?

What might such a boy be called? Would they be given land?
 
Name wise, Henry or Robert- whilst Henry had had problems with his brother that didn't dissuade him from naming a couple of his bastards Robert, and it's a traditional family name. Also Richard- Henry apparently may have had a short-lived second legitimate son named this IOTL.

Let's call him *Richard.

If it's by his first wife then the chances are general butterflies stop the White Ship disaster, and even if it still happens there's no guarantee *Richard would be on-board or wouldn't survive (even William only died because he turned back to rescue a half-sister).

If the White Ship is averted then *Richard, as a second son, will likely be set up with land somewhere (and will probably be discontented if he's not satisfied). Are there any convenient heiresses for him to marry? Maybe one of Henry's bastards lose out, with the land they were given IOTL going to their legitimate half-sibling ITTL?

If it's by his second wife then *Richard will probably need a regent assuming Henry dies on schedule (what's the Norman age of majority?). Even if he's born at the absolute earliest he'll be ~14 when Henry dies in 1135. Regency candidates? - his mother Adeliza of Louvain, his bastard half-brother Robert of Gloucester, his cousin Stephen (who was obviously ambitious enough to seize the throne IOTL), a prelate of some description.

If William Clito avoids the wound that killed him ITTL he might be inclined to cause trouble with someone underage on the English throne.

Matilda may or may not be widowed (FWIW wiki says Henry V died of cancer, so his death might be unavoidable)- if she is, her second marriage may be different as Henry won't be trying to set her up as heir. If Henry (the father) has already had a son by his second wife by the time Matilda's husband (also named Henry!) dies is Matilda less likely to return to England/Normandy as she has no prospect of inheriting the throne? Apparently she fielded offers from imperial princes IOTL.
 
As the thread title says, what consequences would there be if Henry I had a second son from either his first wife or, after the white ship disaster his second wife?

In the former are the chances of the white ship disaster negated by the birth of a second son?

What might such a boy be called? Would they be given land?

Considering that Henry I had a lot of bastards, but his first wife only managed to give him two children I'd say that you'd have a (slightly) better shot of Queen Adeliza giving him a new heir, though due to Henry's age and lack of bastards at this point I'd say that he was shooting blanks at that point.

But let's say there's a miracle child, or perhaps 'miracle' from the second marriage, not sure what name Henry would dish out, I'm tempted to say that the boy would be named William, but if Henry found it too depressing a memorial then he might decide to branch out a bit, maybe name the boy Godfrey in honor of Adeliza's father.

However for the lad, I'll call him Prince Godfrey for now, to have a real chance to actually inherit then Henry will need to conceive him early, and live a bit longer than he did in RL. Because even if Godfrey is conceived on the wedding night, he'd only be in the 13-14 range when Henry I died, leaving him dealing with a regency and a bunch of ambitious uncles and much older bastard half-brothers, a couple of whom had lands of their own and titles of nobility. That's not even factoring in Henry's legitimate daughter, Matilda.

Godfrey would be very vulnerable to being usurped, effectively what happened to Edward V at the hands of Richard III.
 
Name wise, Henry or Robert- whilst Henry had had problems with his brother that didn't dissuade him from naming a couple of his bastards Robert, and it's a traditional family name. Also Richard- Henry apparently may have had a short-lived second legitimate son named this IOTL.

Let's call him *Richard.

If it's by his first wife then the chances are general butterflies stop the White Ship disaster, and even if it still happens there's no guarantee *Richard would be on-board or wouldn't survive (even William only died because he turned back to rescue a half-sister).

If the White Ship is averted then *Richard, as a second son, will likely be set up with land somewhere (and will probably be discontented if he's not satisfied). Are there any convenient heiresses for him to marry? Maybe one of Henry's bastards lose out, with the land they were given IOTL going to their legitimate half-sibling ITTL?

If it's by his second wife then *Richard will probably need a regent assuming Henry dies on schedule (what's the Norman age of majority?). Even if he's born at the absolute earliest he'll be ~14 when Henry dies in 1135. Regency candidates? - his mother Adeliza of Louvain, his bastard half-brother Robert of Gloucester, his cousin Stephen (who was obviously ambitious enough to seize the throne IOTL), a prelate of some description.

If William Clito avoids the wound that killed him ITTL he might be inclined to cause trouble with someone underage on the English throne.

Matilda may or may not be widowed (FWIW wiki says Henry V died of cancer, so his death might be unavoidable)- if she is, her second marriage may be different as Henry won't be trying to set her up as heir. If Henry (the father) has already had a son by his second wife by the time Matilda's husband (also named Henry!) dies is Matilda less likely to return to England/Normandy as she has no prospect of inheriting the throne? Apparently she fielded offers from imperial princes IOTL.

Alright, I would assume that a son from the second marriage would create for far more interesting consequences? As for the name Richard or Godfrey as Shiva has suggested could work as well. Regency candidates I imagine his mother, the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, Robert, Earl of Gloucester, Stephen if he is not busy in the continent, Stephen's brother the Bishop of Winchester. Seeing Clito survive would be fascinating as it would definitely present the legitimacy question once more, given the kid's young age.

I imagine Matilda would likely marry someone else within the Empire, her having a son before her husband dies would also be quite interesting.

Considering that Henry I had a lot of bastards, but his first wife only managed to give him two children I'd say that you'd have a (slightly) better shot of Queen Adeliza giving him a new heir, though due to Henry's age and lack of bastards at this point I'd say that he was shooting blanks at that point.

But let's say there's a miracle child, or perhaps 'miracle' from the second marriage, not sure what name Henry would dish out, I'm tempted to say that the boy would be named William, but if Henry found it too depressing a memorial then he might decide to branch out a bit, maybe name the boy Godfrey in honor of Adeliza's father.

However for the lad, I'll call him Prince Godfrey for now, to have a real chance to actually inherit then Henry will need to conceive him early, and live a bit longer than he did in RL. Because even if Godfrey is conceived on the wedding night, he'd only be in the 13-14 range when Henry I died, leaving him dealing with a regency and a bunch of ambitious uncles and much older bastard half-brothers, a couple of whom had lands of their own and titles of nobility. That's not even factoring in Henry's legitimate daughter, Matilda.

Godfrey would be very vulnerable to being usurped, effectively what happened to Edward V at the hands of Richard III.

Alright interesting, you do not think that Henry could sweeten the regency deal by naming a few of his bastards to the regency council? Or would the preference for an adult heir lead many to throw their own hats into the ring?
 
Alright, I would assume that a son from the second marriage would create for far more interesting consequences? As for the name Richard or Godfrey as Shiva has suggested could work as well. Regency candidates I imagine his mother, the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, Robert, Earl of Gloucester, Stephen if he is not busy in the continent, Stephen's brother the Bishop of Winchester. Seeing Clito survive would be fascinating as it would definitely present the legitimacy question once more, given the kid's young age.

I imagine Matilda would likely marry someone else within the Empire, her having a son before her husband dies would also be quite interesting.



Alright interesting, you do not think that Henry could sweeten the regency deal by naming a few of his bastards to the regency council? Or would the preference for an adult heir lead many to throw their own hats into the ring?

The trick with a regency council in this situation is to figure out which lords need to be 'bought off', which ones can be mollified, and which ones are too ambitious to be trusted.

For Henry to pull this off he would need to set up the Regency council in such a way that enough major players are involved that they can defend the interests of King Godfrey, but have enough conflicting personalities and/or interests to intrigue against each other and serve as a check, or else they will coalesce around a strong personality that could (potentially) usurp the throne.

Considering how swiftly Stephen of Blois seized the throne after Henry's death, my guess is that he will try something no matter what safeguards Henry sets up. But if can set Godfrey up with enough powerful supporters then 'The Anarchy' of RL will turn into a minor episode of an 'evil ambitious uncle' trying to steal his kin's throne and failing miserably.

As for Empress Matilda, if she gives her first husband, Emperor Henry V of the Holy Roman Empire a son, then I can't imagine her leaving the Empire or her son's lands. However depending on how old the son is when Henry V dies, he might not get elected King of Germany/Holy Roman Emperor. I can't imagine the German Lords tolerating a Child-Emperor and a messy regency when there are plenty of grown men available to be elected.
 
The trick with a regency council in this situation is to figure out which lords need to be 'bought off', which ones can be mollified, and which ones are too ambitious to be trusted.

For Henry to pull this off he would need to set up the Regency council in such a way that enough major players are involved that they can defend the interests of King Godfrey, but have enough conflicting personalities and/or interests to intrigue against each other and serve as a check, or else they will coalesce around a strong personality that could (potentially) usurp the throne.

Considering how swiftly Stephen of Blois seized the throne after Henry's death, my guess is that he will try something no matter what safeguards Henry sets up. But if can set Godfrey up with enough powerful supporters then 'The Anarchy' of RL will turn into a minor episode of an 'evil ambitious uncle' trying to steal his kin's throne and failing miserably.

As for Empress Matilda, if she gives her first husband, Emperor Henry V of the Holy Roman Empire a son, then I can't imagine her leaving the Empire or her son's lands. However depending on how old the son is when Henry V dies, he might not get elected King of Germany/Holy Roman Emperor. I can't imagine the German Lords tolerating a Child-Emperor and a messy regency when there are plenty of grown men available to be elected.

Hmm very true, I do imagine that Henry would want his son Robert on the regency council, perhaps one of the Earls of Northampton.

Does also raise the question of Scotland, does David I still invade the north without the connection to Matilda there, or does he sit and wait to see what happens.
 
Hmm very true, I do imagine that Henry would want his son Robert on the regency council, perhaps one of the Earls of Northampton.

Does also raise the question of Scotland, does David I still invade the north without the connection to Matilda there, or does he sit and wait to see what happens.

In many respects if Henry I hadn't helped David as a child, he'd have NEVER have become King of Scotland. He owed his crown to the man, that's a debt in the mindset of the era that he could never throw away, he'd lose face among his peers forever.

If anyone attacks the son of Henry I, like lets say an ambitious uncle who wants Godfrey's throne, then David I of Scots is going raise his banners to defend the boy.

Never the mind the fact that's pretty much what David did in Scotland. ;)

Plus if he got some lands as a reward, let's say big chunks of Northumbria, then that's just icing on the cake. Long-term though that would cause all sorts of headaches for both Scotland and England, since you'd have a King who is also an Earl/Duke vassal of the King of England, and the King of England in turn has lands in France that makes him a vassal of the King of France.

Fun times and hilarity will ensue!
 
In many respects if Henry I hadn't helped David as a child, he'd have NEVER have become King of Scotland. He owed his crown to the man, that's a debt in the mindset of the era that he could never throw away, he'd lose face among his peers forever.

If anyone attacks the son of Henry I, like lets say an ambitious uncle who wants Godfrey's throne, then David I of Scots is going raise his banners to defend the boy.

Never the mind the fact that's pretty much what David did in Scotland. ;)

Plus if he got some lands as a reward, let's say big chunks of Northumbria, then that's just icing on the cake. Long-term though that would cause all sorts of headaches for both Scotland and England, since you'd have a King who is also an Earl/Duke vassal of the King of England, and the King of England in turn has lands in France that makes him a vassal of the King of France.

Fun times and hilarity will ensue!

This is very true, and will also ensure all kinds of headaches for generations to come aha. I do wonder, is it more or less likely that Matilda has a son by her first husband, and if less likely, would a marriage to old Geoffrey still happen?

So, regarding the actual boy and his father, would you advise having Henry live slightly longer until his son is around 16, or would having him die on schedule make it more interesting?
 
This is very true, and will also ensure all kinds of headaches for generations to come aha. I do wonder, is it more or less likely that Matilda has a son by her first husband, and if less likely, would a marriage to old Geoffrey still happen?

So, regarding the actual boy and his father, would you advise having Henry live slightly longer until his son is around 16, or would having him die on schedule make it more interesting?

In regards to Matilda, Henry V married her in 1114 but had reigned as King of Germany since 1099 and HR Emperor since 1111, he died of cancer on campaign in 1125 and his lands went to his nephew (by his sister) Frederick II, Duke of Swabia and the HRE went to Frederick's younger brother Conrad. So even if they had an early conception their child would be 14 at the MOST, and while would inherit his father's direct lands free and clear, I just can't see the German lords choosing the boy (imaginatively named 'Henry' after his father, and two grandfathers) as their Emperor/King, even with his bloodline.

Considering the political climate of the HRE, and the mess of the Investiture Controversy that Henry V was involved in... Yeah, I think the time of the Salian dynasty was nearly spent.

As for Matilda herself, I can't imagine her up and leaving her son in charge of his lands (not sure what his title would be under these circumstances) for a new marriage in another country. The lad is surrounded by literal robber-barons who covet any piece of land they can get. No, in Matilda's mind she needs to be at his side as a Regent, or at the very least as a powerful advisor. Maybe even help the lad get his father's titles of King and Emperor back when he's older... I can't see Matilda's ambitious nature changing that much, it will just be directed towards getting her son the best deal possible, rather than getting a crown for herself.
 
This is very true, and will also ensure all kinds of headaches for generations to come aha. I do wonder, is it more or less likely that Matilda has a son by her first husband, and if less likely, would a marriage to old Geoffrey still happen?

Wasn't the Angevin marriage partially motivated by Henry's desire to reconcile with Geoff's dad Fulk- with whom Henry had quarrelled when he refused to return the dowry Fulk's daughter brought to her marriage with William Adelin- and secure Normandy's borders? Because those strategic factors are still in play to make the marriage attractive if Matilda returns to Normandy (which'll only happen if she's childless by HRE Henry). Though Matilda had a somewhat forceful personality, and I'm sure there are plenty of other things that could derail the proposed match even if it is suggested ITTL.

Though depending on how things go and whether you want to play with butterflies Fulk might not go East to become King of Jerusalem, which would change the Angevin situation.

If there's tension between Matilda and her step-mom (who is younger than she is) and baby brother then that might effect what Henry chooses to do with her too.
 
Hmm very valid points. For you both would having Matilda having a kid by Henry v be better or worse?

If Henry, Duke of ____ (whatever his title would be) makes it to adulthood, then he becomes an automatic source of malcontent in the HRE against whoever does wind up with the Imperial Crown, due to their blood-ties it would either be Frederick II, Duke of Swabia or his brother Conrad (like in RL), which means that their political enemies would see Henry as a rallying point.

Not sure if the Pope would get involved to the point of making Henry an 'Anti-Emperor', but it's the HRE, political shenanigans are just part of the scenery, but if either of his Uncle-Emperor(s?) dies with either no issue or YOUNG issue then Henry would be a shoe in for becoming Henry VI of the HRE.
 
If Henry, Duke of ____ (whatever his title would be) makes it to adulthood, then he becomes an automatic source of malcontent in the HRE against whoever does wind up with the Imperial Crown, due to their blood-ties it would either be Frederick II, Duke of Swabia or his brother Conrad (like in RL), which means that their political enemies would see Henry as a rallying point.

Not sure if the Pope would get involved to the point of making Henry an 'Anti-Emperor', but it's the HRE, political shenanigans are just part of the scenery, but if either of his Uncle-Emperor(s?) dies with either no issue or YOUNG issue then Henry would be a shoe in for becoming Henry VI of the HRE.

Very true, would Henry be named Duke of Lower Swabia or some such? Or something along the lines of Duke of Wuttermburg if such a thing exists.
 
Very true, would Henry be named Duke of Lower Swabia or some such? Or something along the lines of Duke of Wuttermburg if such a thing exists.

Lower Swabia makes the most sense, Wurttemberg in this era is currently a County and doesn't become a duchy until the Late 1400s. Plus it helps that 'Lower Swabia' isn't tied to a specific piece of geography, so there's flexibility there.
 
Lower Swabia makes the most sense, Wurttemberg in this era is currently a County and doesn't become a duchy until the Late 1400s. Plus it helps that 'Lower Swabia' isn't tied to a specific piece of geography, so there's flexibility there.

Very true, I do wonder where exactly he'd be based now aha.
 
In regard to the Henry I's second son, I imagine he'd likely grow up with the shadow of his older brother hanging over him, as well as his father's pressing legacy. The internal politics of the regency could well limit outward expansion for the time being, until the boy reaches the age of maturity, which I imagine was twenty-one?
 
Hm, an interesting potential TL, with a lot of potential and fascinating consequences. If you go with a single POD, that of the birth of a son to Henry I and Adeliza of Louvain, then one would/should focus on what ripples out from that. Henry and Adeliza were married in January 1121 (thank you Wikipedia), so I'd say that the absolute earliest that the boy would be born would be at the end of the year, so sometime in December 1121. As a result of that, Henry would focus on making the boy (Richard/Godfrey/Henry/William/whatever) the focus of the succession, and everything he'd do from that point on would be geared toward the goal of providing his son with the most stable realm possible to inherit.

In regards to Matilda, I don't see the birth of a half-brother influencing her fertility and that of her first husband, so I'm thinking that they would still be childless and he would die on time in 1125. With his death and her own lack of children, Matilda was limited in her choices - entering a nunnery, remarriage within the HRE, or returning to her family in England. I can't see someone as active and forceful as Matilda choosing to take the veil, so that option is out. Remarrying is something that would probably happen whether she stayed in the HRE or went back to England, but she might want to go where she would have the most influence. If she remarries some random German prince, she'd just be one among many princesses, whereas if she goes back to England, she'd be a big fish in a smaller pond. What's more, her father might want her to come home, seeing her as a potential pawn in preserving the realm for her half-brother. Matilda might even think she's a potential candidate for the regency should her father die while her brother is still a minor.

As for Henry himself, the tradition is that he died from eating a "surfeit of lampreys" against his physician's advice. If Henry has a second son, I could see him possibly being a little more cautious in his own health, perhaps being determined to live as long as possible to give his son as much time as possible to grow up and learn, so maybe he actually does take his physician's advice and limits himself on how many lampreys he eats? That could theoretically extend his life a little.

Henry would also probably focus on rebuilding the alliance with Fulk of Anjou, which had fallen apart over their squabbling over Fulk's daughter's dowry (she had died on the White Ship as well), so Matilda may very well still end up married to Geoffrey of Anjou, though Henry might offer up a cash dowry of some kind as opposed to lands/castles in Normandy. Henry didn't want to give Geoffrey a foothold in Normandy, and so kept things muddied as to when the new couple would take control of those castles in TOTL, so he might just avoid that all-together by providing offering a generous sum of cash or something. If the marriage still happens, we'd theoretically still have Henry FitzEmpress (OTL's Henry II of England), which could lead for interesting times in the future.

If Henry does die while his son is still young, I definitely think it's possible that there will still be some measure of a shake-up. Stephen and his brother, who was the Bishop of Winchester, might still seek to seize power, but I suppose it also might depend on where the boy is when his father dies. IOTL, Matilda and Geoffrey were in Anjou, supporting rebels against the royal armies, which rather awkwardly contained some of her allies. Still, in this case, if the boy is in England or had been sent back to England the moment it appeared that his father's illness appeared mortal, Stephen might face a tougher challenge. IOTL people were wary of accepting Matilda as Henry's heir, both because it was such an irregular move and because Matilda's behavior had not won her many friends. Many of those that supported her seemed to do so only because they felt bound to uphold the oaths they made to Henry I. ITTL, we have a male heir who has been touted as such pretty much from birth, and likely entertains a wider support base than Matilda ever did. People like Robert of Gloucester (who supported Matilda's claim until his death in 1147) would be more likely to rally to the late king's son than to a nephew, no matter how influential he was (and Stephen had influence).

Instead of going for the kingship directly like he did IOTL, I think it's possible that Stephen might have tried to take over the regency for his cousin, perhaps pushing aside others who could or would also be part of the regency, like Robert of Gloucester, Queen Adeliza, maybe Matilda (depending on whether she and her husband were at odds with Henry before his death). His doing so would likely alienate a lot of people, and possibly cause a fair bit of upheaval in England and Normandy. And that's not even covering what rivals like France would do in the face of all of this.
 
Okay fascinating, so Henry V is still likely to die, Matilda is a childless widow, likely comes back to England, and potentially marries Geoffrey as per otl.

As for Henry I's second son, is Godfrey, William or Richard more likely for a name?

I can see him being raised in the art of ruling, perhaps being a bit of a soldier, but leaning towards perhaps learning more about the world as he would know it.

In regards to your point as to where he'd be when his father dies, would he not be in London, with his father? Or would he be in Normandy, acting as a proxy for his old man?

As for Stephen, I can see him being pushed into seizing the regency, both for his own preference and by his brother.
 
Name-wise, I think Richard or Godfrey is more likely, though he could still even go for William, naming him after William Adelin, whose death led to the boy's own existence.

Henry I actually died in Lyons-la-Florêt, which is in north-western France. Hence why there was a bit of a power vacuum in London when he died. Many lords were in France with him and had actually sworn to not return to England until Henry was dead and buried. Which is why Stephen was actually able to take over as easily as he did. So my thought was that the boy was initially with his father in France, but once it appears that Henry's illness is mortal, he sends the boy back to London to prevent anyone from getting ideas about usurping the kid. Queen Adeliza would probably be with him to lend further support and legitimacy.

But yes, I agree it's quite possible that Stephen would seize the regency (and possibly even the boy himself and his mother), so as to exercise full control. Few would dare attack him when he's in control of the new king, at least not directly. Such behavior would likely set up a fair bit of conflict, and Stephen snatching the regency will hardly endear him to the young king, which means Stephen might be in trouble in the long run, unless he decides to find a way to kill the boy so he can just take over himself, but that's really getting out there into la-la land and it's hard to speculate on something that extreme.
 
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