Henry Brandon, son of Charles, Duke of Suffolk and Mary Tudor lives.

Well James V of Scotland is a King in his own right and already Henry’s nephew so he is clearly the best choice for a Princes Mary who is her father’s heiress but can also be replaced by a younger brother...
Mary will likely still more inclined to marry some maternal relative so if the choice will be totally hers the Duke of Beja has great chances to be choised as Prince/King Consort in the second half of 1530s... but if Mary want a King then James V of Scotland is again the logical option...
Really I can not see either from Henry or Mary point of view any interest in wasting her in a wedding to Brandon...
Ahh what would be needed for either Mary or Henry to see the need for Mary to marry Brandon?
 
The timings are a bit awkward for both actually:

James V was treaty bound to marry a French princess - however he is not going to pursue that if the chance of an English marriage and ultimately the English crown is on offer - he explored other options to France from about 1529 in OTL though in the end he sailed for France in 36 and married Madeleine - preventing that in OTL for a match with Mary is unlikely as it might be too early for Henry to accept Mary is likely to be his only child - the next gap will be from her death in 37 and his Guise marriage in 38 - again a bit difficult but not impossible that pressure might mount for a match and James' delays a second marriage in the hope of marrying his cousin Mary of England - his mother will certainly favour that despite her poor relationship with Henry.
 
All I'm going to do here is to chime in with a reminder that English and British history are chock full with fascinating accidents having to do with how many and which children of which monarchs and their close family survive, and which do not. Of course the all-time best example of this remains Queen Anne. But by my money, a runner-up is the children of Charles Brandon. He had eight legitimate, or legitimized, children. The two daughters born to Anne Brown, the two sons born to Mary Tudor, the two daughters born to Mary Tudor, and the two sons born to Catherine Willoughby. Every daughter makes it to adulthood. Average age at death of a son capable of transmitting the dukedom of Suffolk, fifteen years. Average age at death of a son with a potential claim to the throne of England, eight or nine years.

Now, it's not like I want to make the absolutely irresponsible claim that a Tudor might be capable of harm to a nephew, a cousin, or a cousin once-removed, when matters of the succession are involved. (What kind of Tudor would it be, we might ask, who would put the succession before family?), but someone with a less than completely charitable view of the king might think the early deaths of the sons by Mary some evidence of what he actually thought about the sons of Charles Brandon succeeding him. Or perhaps, someone at his court who gets regularly compared in the historical literature to Lavrenti Beria. And I'm not venturing to say anything about the deaths of the sons by Willoughby, that's supposedly a straightforward fever.

Remember, by the way, just how recently the Brandon family had risen. And how unusual their ascent to the English throne would be, even in comparison to the Tudors.

And on an unrelated note, I did actually encounter online once a person who said there was no evidence someone as morally conservative as Henry would ever actually engage in extramarital sex, and that that whole business with Anne Stafford was unproven anyway, and how dare we cast aspersions on someone who clearly believed in the institution of marriage as much as England's great King Harry? It was all I could do to restrain myself from the obvious profanity when I asked where she thought the Duke of Richmond came from.
 
All I'm going to do here is to chime in with a reminder that English and British history are chock full with fascinating accidents having to do with how many and which children of which monarchs and their close family survive, and which do not. Of course the all-time best example of this remains Queen Anne. But by my money, a runner-up is the children of Charles Brandon. He had eight legitimate, or legitimized, children. The two daughters born to Anne Brown, the two sons born to Mary Tudor, the two daughters born to Mary Tudor, and the two sons born to Catherine Willoughby. Every daughter makes it to adulthood. Average age at death of a son capable of transmitting the dukedom of Suffolk, fifteen years. Average age at death of a son with a potential claim to the throne of England, eight or nine years.

Now, it's not like I want to make the absolutely irresponsible claim that a Tudor might be capable of harm to a nephew, a cousin, or a cousin once-removed, when matters of the succession are involved. (What kind of Tudor would it be, we might ask, who would put the succession before family?), but someone with a less than completely charitable view of the king might think the early deaths of the sons by Mary some evidence of what he actually thought about the sons of Charles Brandon succeeding him. Or perhaps, someone at his court who gets regularly compared in the historical literature to Lavrenti Beria. And I'm not venturing to say anything about the deaths of the sons by Willoughby, that's supposedly a straightforward fever.

Remember, by the way, just how recently the Brandon family had risen. And how unusual their ascent to the English throne would be, even in comparison to the Tudors.

And on an unrelated note, I did actually encounter online once a person who said there was no evidence someone as morally conservative as Henry would ever actually engage in extramarital sex, and that that whole business with Anne Stafford was unproven anyway, and how dare we cast aspersions on someone who clearly believed in the institution of marriage as much as England's great King Harry? It was all I could do to restrain myself from the obvious profanity when I asked where she thought the Duke of Richmond came from.

Could someone also perhaps conspire to see Mary Tudo the Younger removed from the board, if her sister and brother did not exist here, but her aunt Margaret's daughter Margaret also did?
 
The timings are a bit awkward for both actually:

James V was treaty bound to marry a French princess - however he is not going to pursue that if the chance of an English marriage and ultimately the English crown is on offer - he explored other options to France from about 1529 in OTL though in the end he sailed for France in 36 and married Madeleine - preventing that in OTL for a match with Mary is unlikely as it might be too early for Henry to accept Mary is likely to be his only child - the next gap will be from her death in 37 and his Guise marriage in 38 - again a bit difficult but not impossible that pressure might mount for a match and James' delays a second marriage in the hope of marrying his cousin Mary of England - his mother will certainly favour that despite her poor relationship with Henry.
I know who the time for James also is not easy but a James-Mary match do not need Henry’s acceptance of Mary as his heiress for going ahead as in the case Henry had later a son James and Mary will stay as rulers of only Scotland.
Marrying Mary will give to James a really good chance to inheriting England while marrying Mary to James will give to Henry the security who England will not fall under a power like Spain, France, Austria or Portugal and will secure his borders removing the danger of the French-Scottish alliance
 
Mary was engaged to James at some point, but Henry broke it off because he didn't want England to be swallowed up by Scotland once he dies and Mary is still his sole heir. Which, irony of ironies, he tried to make England swallow Scotland through the Rough Wooing.

Anyway, if Henry dies and the only heirs are Mary, Margaret's line, and Mary Tudor, Queen of France's line, I can probably see a race of who gets to London the fastest happening.

Also, if Mary marries Brandon, cousin Charles is going to insist Mary be crowned as co-ruler and not just a mere consort.
 
Mary was engaged to James at some point, but Henry broke it off because he didn't want England to be swallowed up by Scotland once he dies and Mary is still his sole heir. Which, irony of ironies, he tried to make England swallow Scotland through the Rough Wooing.

Anyway, if Henry dies and the only heirs are Mary, Margaret's line, and Mary Tudor, Queen of France's line, I can probably see a race of who gets to London the fastest happening.

Also, if Mary marries Brandon, cousin Charles is going to insist Mary be crowned as co-ruler and not just a mere consort.

I do wonder about the possibility of the two of them falling in love, Henry Brandon and Mary that is. Especially if they meet regularly at court.
 
I do wonder about the possibility of the two of them falling in love, Henry Brandon and Mary that is. Especially if they meet regularly at court.

Would Henry allow them to wed though, or would he see it as the first stage of a coup, a la Elizabeth and the marriages of the surviving Grey sisters?
 
Mary was engaged to James at some point, but Henry broke it off because he didn't want England to be swallowed up by Scotland once he dies and Mary is still his sole heir. Which, irony of ironies, he tried to make England swallow Scotland through the Rough Wooing.

Anyway, if Henry dies and the only heirs are Mary, Margaret's line, and Mary Tudor, Queen of France's line, I can probably see a race of who gets to London the fastest happening.

Also, if Mary marries Brandon, cousin Charles is going to insist Mary be crowned as co-ruler and not just a mere consort.
You are sure about it? I know who the only engagements of Mary were that to Dauphin Francis and the one to Charles V in her first years of life and after that only a proposed wedding with either Francis I or Henry, Duke of Orleans soon abandoned.
Really both Henry and Catherine wanted a more prestigious match for Mary than Scotland and then she became only an illegitimate daughter (who was not to be married to a foreign ruler or prince or to the English high nobility)

Instead Henry VII was asked if he do not feared the risk of England being swallowed by Scotland if the wedding between his eldest daughter Margaret and James IV of Scotland will go ahead (and the King response was who in any case Scotland would have been swallowed by England as in case of an union in a couple of generations at the worst the Stewarts would be fully English)
 
You are sure about it? I know who the only engagements of Mary were that to Dauphin Francis and the one to Charles V in her first years of life and after that only a proposed wedding with either Francis I or Henry, Duke of Orleans soon abandoned.
Really both Henry and Catherine wanted a more prestigious match for Mary than Scotland and then she became only an illegitimate daughter (who was not to be married to a foreign ruler or prince or to the English high nobility)

Instead Henry VII was asked if he do not feared the risk of England being swallowed by Scotland if the wedding between his eldest daughter Margaret and James IV of Scotland will go ahead (and the King response was who in any case Scotland would have been swallowed by England as in case of an union in a couple of generations at the worst the Stewarts would be fully English)

First thing I could find was from Fraser's book

Naturally this kind of feared takeover found its most extreme form where kingdoms were at stake. King Henry hung back from wedding his daughter Mary to her first cousin James V of Scotland in 1524 lest the inferior kingdom seize the opportunity to swallow up its superior (as the English saw the situation). Twenty years later the Scots in turn hung back from allowing the child Mary Queen of Scots to be married to Prince Edward. ‘If your lad were a lass and our lass were a lad (and so be King of England), would you then be so earnest in this matter?’ asked the Scots, reasonably enough.

Also, the marriage negotiations from the French were for Francis, the Dauphin and Duke of Brittany, i.e. the son, not the father. Claude was still alive during this time, which is why it's weird most people say it's the father Mary was engaged to.
 
First thing I could find was from Fraser's book



Also, the marriage negotiations from the French were for Francis, the Dauphin and Duke of Brittany, i.e. the son, not the father. Claude was still alive during this time, which is why it's weird most people say it's the father Mary was engaged to.
Read again what I wrote: Mary was engaged first to the Dauphin Francis, then to Charles V and after the breakup of that second engagement (aka after 1525) the only engagement planned for Mary was a match with either Francis I or his son Henry, Duke of Orleans soon abandoned
 
Read again what I wrote: Mary was engaged first to the Dauphin Francis, then to Charles V and after the breakup of that second engagement (aka after 1525) the only engagement planned for Mary was a match with either Francis I or his son Henry, Duke of Orleans soon abandoned

And what I'm saying is there wasn't a plan for marry to wed Francis I, it was always Francis the Dauphin, unless you can point me to a source that states it, in which case, much obliged I guess. And in any case, Francis was engaged to Leonor ever since his captivity, so there's around a window of a year if negotiations did happen.
 
And what I'm saying is there wasn't a plan for marry to wed Francis I, it was always Francis the Dauphin, unless you can point me to a source that states it, in which case, much obliged I guess. And in any case, Francis was engaged to Leonor ever since his captivity, so there's around a window of a year if negotiations did happen.
The formal engagement before the one to Charles was to the Dauphin Francis, the latter proposal in 1526 was to either Francis I or his second son the Duke of Orleans.
Francis I was already engaged to Eleanor of Austria but originally had zero intention to marry her (the double possible husband was indeed caused by Francis’ promise to marry Eleanor)
See Anna Whitelock’s bio on Mary Tudor
 
We've butterflied Lady Elizabeth Tudor & her younger, legitimate half-brother Edward (future VI)?

{I've had a head cold and missed the start of this.}
 
If H8 is dead, and she's the oldest living child and believes the annulment the work of her father's scriptural error and herself legitimate, she's raising her flag. If he's alive, no. That's what I meant - sorry I misread it. I presumed H8 was dead. (Fell down stairs, got thrown from a horse.....:rolleyes:)
 
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