Henry Brandon, son of Charles, Duke of Suffolk and Mary Tudor lives.

So, I'm sure this has probably been asked a lot before, but thought I'd go at this from a different angle:

In 1516, Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk and his wife Mary Tudor-sister to Henry VIII- had a son named Henry, unfortunately this lad died in 1522.

My question for you all is two fold:

1. Let's say Henry survives, what sort of upbringing might we expect for him, and how might he play into Henry VIII's wider plans?

2. Let's say that come 1536, Henry VIII has executed Anne Boelyn but is still only with one child to show for all his efforts in Mary Tudor the Younger, what does Henry do here? He's ageing, he's just suffered an accident and it's possible he mauy never have another child. Does he consider the succession and marry his nephew and daughter to one another, or name his nephew his heir?
 
Which one are you discussing - Mary and Charles had two sons both confusingly named Henry.
Lord Henry Brandon b 1516 died 1522 and Lord Henry Brandon, 1st Earl of Lincoln b 1523 ish and died 1534.

Assuming his survival - the 1st Earl was due to marry Catherine Willoughby - but Charles decided not to wait and married her himself after Mary's death. If the elder son had survived then the marriage might have already happened before his mother's death given his father's avarice lol. We know that Catherine became a devout Protestant and might have influenced her husband in that direction and certainly any of there children.
Either Henry would have probably been heir in default of the King's issue I suspect - if Edward VI still dies on schedule then I would expect him to name his cousin the Duke of Suffolk in preference to his illegitimate sisters and the Brandon's might be able to hold out against Mary in those circumstances - especially given that if Henry had a son it would be easy enough to marry him to Elizabeth in due course.
 
Which one are you discussing - Mary and Charles had two sons both confusingly named Henry.
Lord Henry Brandon b 1516 died 1522 and Lord Henry Brandon, 1st Earl of Lincoln b 1523 ish and died 1534.

Assuming his survival - the 1st Earl was due to marry Catherine Willoughby - but Charles decided not to wait and married her himself after Mary's death. If the elder son had survived then the marriage might have already happened before his mother's death given his father's avarice lol. We know that Catherine became a devout Protestant and might have influenced her husband in that direction and certainly any of there children.
Either Henry would have probably been heir in default of the King's issue I suspect - if Edward VI still dies on schedule then I would expect him to name his cousin the Duke of Suffolk in preference to his illegitimate sisters and the Brandon's might be able to hold out against Mary in those circumstances - especially given that if Henry had a son it would be easy enough to marry him to Elizabeth in due course.

Aye, it was the Lord Henry Brandon born 1516 who was I referring to.

And, what if Anne is executed in the early 1530s having failed to produce either a daughter or a son, and Henry's accident in 1536, leaves most likely unable to produce more kids?
 
Aye, it was the Lord Henry Brandon born 1516 who was I referring to.

And, what if Anne is executed in the early 1530s having failed to produce either a daughter or a son, and Henry's accident in 1536, leaves most likely unable to produce more kids?

Lincoln (if still unwed) marries Mary Tudor Jnr. I could see Brandon wanting to keep Katherine Willoughby for the younger boy in the hopes of matching the younger Mary with his son. And considering the closeness of the duchess of Suffolk and Katherine of Aragon, I could see this happening.
 
I think he has a very strong chance of succeeding his uncle if its the older boy and say he marries Mary once it becomes apparent the King is likely to not have any surviving issue - a younger marriage for Mary doesn't rule out issue - also an earlier marriage might temper her religious fervour a little - a couple that are pretty much Henrician Catholics.
A match and a guarantee for the succession would probably start to heal England's relationships with both the Emperor and Rome.
 
Lincoln (if still unwed) marries Mary Tudor Jnr. I could see Brandon wanting to keep Katherine Willoughby for the younger boy in the hopes of matching the younger Mary with his son. And considering the closeness of the duchess of Suffolk and Katherine of Aragon, I could see this happening.

Oh now that would be something, I imagine then that Henry would need to bring Mary back into the line of succession then.

I think he has a very strong chance of succeeding his uncle if its the older boy and say he marries Mary once it becomes apparent the King is likely to not have any surviving issue - a younger marriage for Mary doesn't rule out issue - also an earlier marriage might temper her religious fervour a little - a couple that are pretty much Henrician Catholics.
A match and a guarantee for the succession would probably start to heal England's relationships with both the Emperor and Rome.
Now that sounds interesting, perhaps stalling the reforms that came once Henry went off the deep end so to speak.

Would Henry jnr reign as sole monarch or as co monarch with his cousin?
 
Oh now that would be something, I imagine then that Henry would need to bring Mary back into the line of succession then.


Now that sounds interesting, perhaps stalling the reforms that came once Henry went off the deep end so to speak.

Would Henry jnr reign as sole monarch or as co monarch with his cousin?

The biggest issue is that Henry won't revisit decisions he made because "I'm right" - so he won't want to declare Mary legitimate under any circumstances - If we assume Anne Boleyn fails - his old pal Charles Brandon suggests that his son marries Mary to remove the problem (the King might not want to marry her at all given the threat she might pose to his own reign).
Irrespective of what the future holds Henry will also never admit he is no longer capable of fathering issue - however as time passes and assuming this tl succession act is worded as in otl that he can name his heir by letters patent or in his will then the court and everyone else will assume he will name his nephew Henry Earl of Lincoln as his heir (with Mary as Queen Consort) - the court and much of the country will accept that - though I suspect Mary raised by a mother who was the daughter of a successful Queen Regnant will be rather hurt by that.

Henry VIII himself tried to halt the tide of reform by the end of the 1530s though the genie was out of the bottle so to speak, but while he might want to restore some of his continental Catholic relationships he is never going to surrender the supreme amount of power he's gained by placing himself in charge of the Church in England.
 
Which one are you discussing - Mary and Charles had two sons both confusingly named Henry.
Lord Henry Brandon b 1516 died 1522 and Lord Henry Brandon, 1st Earl of Lincoln b 1523 ish and died 1534.

Assuming his survival - the 1st Earl was due to marry Catherine Willoughby - but Charles decided not to wait and married her himself after Mary's death. If the elder son had survived then the marriage might have already happened before his mother's death given his father's avarice lol. We know that Catherine became a devout Protestant and might have influenced her husband in that direction and certainly any of there children.
Either Henry would have probably been heir in default of the King's issue I suspect - if Edward VI still dies on schedule then I would expect him to name his cousin the Duke of Suffolk in preference to his illegitimate sisters and the Brandon's might be able to hold out against Mary in those circumstances - especially given that if Henry had a son it would be easy enough to marry him to Elizabeth in due course.
Which one are you discussing - Mary and Charles had two sons both confusingly named Henry.
Lord Henry Brandon b 1516 died 1522 and Lord Henry Brandon, 1st Earl of Lincoln b 1523 ish and died 1534.

Assuming his survival - the 1st Earl was due to marry Catherine Willoughby - but Charles decided not to wait and married her himself after Mary's death. If the elder son had survived then the marriage might have already happened before his mother's death given his father's avarice lol. We know that Catherine became a devout Protestant and might have influenced her husband in that direction and certainly any of there children.
Either Henry would have probably been heir in default of the King's issue I suspect - if Edward VI still dies on schedule then I would expect him to name his cousin the Duke of Suffolk in preference to his illegitimate sisters and the Brandon's might be able to hold out against Mary in those circumstances - especially given that if Henry had a son it would be easy enough to marry him to Elizabeth in due course.
Catherine Willoughby was engaged with the younger Henry, not the older (as the older died years before Catherine’s father and she was engaged to Lincoln because she was Suffolk’s ward)...
I do not think who Henry will let go ahead a wedding between Mary and Lincoln (as Henry will see Mary as a danger for any son he would have) so is likely who the older boy will become Earl of Lincoln and marry Catherine Willoughby while his younger brother will have another name, likely Charles, Edward or Arthur.
If both Brandon boys survive Edward VI will amend the succession naming his cousin Henry Brandon, Duke of Suffolk as heir followed by his heirs and then his brother Edward/Arthur/Charles and his heirs
 
The biggest issue is that Henry won't revisit decisions he made because "I'm right" - so he won't want to declare Mary legitimate under any circumstances - If we assume Anne Boleyn fails - his old pal Charles Brandon suggests that his son marries Mary to remove the problem (the King might not want to marry her at all given the threat she might pose to his own reign).
Irrespective of what the future holds Henry will also never admit he is no longer capable of fathering issue - however as time passes and assuming this tl succession act is worded as in otl that he can name his heir by letters patent or in his will then the court and everyone else will assume he will name his nephew Henry Earl of Lincoln as his heir (with Mary as Queen Consort) - the court and much of the country will accept that - though I suspect Mary raised by a mother who was the daughter of a successful Queen Regnant will be rather hurt by that.

Henry VIII himself tried to halt the tide of reform by the end of the 1530s though the genie was out of the bottle so to speak, but while he might want to restore some of his continental Catholic relationships he is never going to surrender the supreme amount of power he's gained by placing himself in charge of the Church in England.

Alright, agreed with you there, I can definitely see Henry and his advisors coming up with some way to prevent Mary from directly inheriting whilst also ensuring that Henry Brandon can inherit and then marry Mary, to pave over cracks. And agreed, if it gets to about 1540, without any children for Henry and he's on death's door he's definitely going to consider this.

Catherine Willoughby was engaged with the younger Henry, not the older (as the older died years before Catherine’s father and she was engaged to Lincoln because she was Suffolk’s ward)...
I do not think who Henry will let go ahead a wedding between Mary and Lincoln (as Henry will see Mary as a danger for any son he would have) so is likely who the older boy will become Earl of Lincoln and marry Catherine Willoughby while his younger brother will have another name, likely Charles, Edward or Arthur.
If both Brandon boys survive Edward VI will amend the succession naming his cousin Henry Brandon, Duke of Suffolk as heir followed by his heirs and then his brother Edward/Arthur/Charles and his heirs

And what if there is no Edward VI, because Henry is unable to produce more children?
 
Alright, agreed with you there, I can definitely see Henry and his advisors coming up with some way to prevent Mary from directly inheriting whilst also ensuring that Henry Brandon can inherit and then marry Mary, to pave over cracks. And agreed, if it gets to about 1540, without any children for Henry and he's on death's door he's definitely going to consider this.



And what if there is no Edward VI, because Henry is unable to produce more children?
Then Henry will first name Richmond as heir if he is still alive or will play longer the game delaying the proclamation of an heir while keeping Mary unmarried as he can not trust her and hoping to have a legitimate son. If Henry had no son (or child who he recognize as legitimate) I do not know who will be his heir - choices: Mary, if still alive (who will likely try to take the Crown, independently from who Henry has named as heir), James V of Scotland and Henry Brandon, Duke of Suffolk.
 
Then Henry will first name Richmond as heir if he is still alive or will play longer the game delaying the proclamation of an heir while keeping Mary unmarried as he can not trust her and hoping to have a legitimate son. If Henry had no son (or child who he recognize as legitimate) I do not know who will be his heir - choices: Mary, if still alive (who will likely try to take the Crown, independently from who Henry has named as heir), James V of Scotland and Henry Brandon, Duke of Suffolk.
Alrighty do you think Henry on his deathbed night arrange for Henry and Mary to marry?
 
Then Henry will first name Richmond as heir if he is still alive or will play longer the game delaying the proclamation of an heir while keeping Mary unmarried as he can not trust her and hoping to have a legitimate son. If Henry had no son (or child who he recognize as legitimate) I do not know who will be his heir - choices: Mary, if still alive (who will likely try to take the Crown, independently from who Henry has named as heir), James V of Scotland and Henry Brandon, Duke of Suffolk.

i actually agree though I doubt he'll name Richmond while he still hopes in vain for a legitimate heir of his own - I suspect there'll be an "assumption" by the court that Henry will name either Mary or Henry Brandon as his heir at "some point" after Richmond's death - but he won't as naming an heir will be tantamount to admit he is no longer likely to father a child his ego and vanity won't allow that.
He'll wait until he's on his death bed assuming he is given the same power to name an heir as in otl.

I do believe that there is a chance that he will permit a marriage between his bastard daughter Mary and his nephew in the late 30s if Brandon is still free (though if Brandon's father gains Willoughby's wardship as in otl then she'll be betrothed to the older Henry and married to him before his mother's death i suspect though a chance of Mary might delays matters - in otl Suffolk wasn't willing to wait for his younger son to come of age and probably fancied her himself) - however i tend to agree with Isabella that he'll delay that for as long as possible especially if he faces an alternate Catholic rising in 36 as he did in OTL.
 
i actually agree though I doubt he'll name Richmond while he still hopes in vain for a legitimate heir of his own - I suspect there'll be an "assumption" by the court that Henry will name either Mary or Henry Brandon as his heir at "some point" after Richmond's death - but he won't as naming an heir will be tantamount to admit he is no longer likely to father a child his ego and vanity won't allow that.
He'll wait until he's on his death bed assuming he is given the same power to name an heir as in otl.

I do believe that there is a chance that he will permit a marriage between his bastard daughter Mary and his nephew in the late 30s if Brandon is still free (though if Brandon's father gains Willoughby's wardship as in otl then she'll be betrothed to the older Henry and married to him before his mother's death i suspect though a chance of Mary might delays matters - in otl Suffolk wasn't willing to wait for his younger son to come of age and probably fancied her himself) - however i tend to agree with Isabella that he'll delay that for as long as possible especially if he faces an alternate Catholic rising in 36 as he did in OTL.
Alright interesting, so very likely we could see some betrothal being arranged between Henry and willougby but perhaps that being cancelled or shifted down when it appears likely Henry could marry Mary
 
Alrighty do you think Henry on his deathbed night arrange for Henry and Mary to marry?
i actually agree though I doubt he'll name Richmond while he still hopes in vain for a legitimate heir of his own - I suspect there'll be an "assumption" by the court that Henry will name either Mary or Henry Brandon as his heir at "some point" after Richmond's death - but he won't as naming an heir will be tantamount to admit he is no longer likely to father a child his ego and vanity won't allow that.
He'll wait until he's on his death bed assuming he is given the same power to name an heir as in otl.

I do believe that there is a chance that he will permit a marriage between his bastard daughter Mary and his nephew in the late 30s if Brandon is still free (though if Brandon's father gains Willoughby's wardship as in otl then she'll be betrothed to the older Henry and married to him before his mother's death i suspect though a chance of Mary might delays matters - in otl Suffolk wasn't willing to wait for his younger son to come of age and probably fancied her himself) - however i tend to agree with Isabella that he'll delay that for as long as possible especially if he faces an alternate Catholic rising in 36 as he did in OTL.
With Henry who do not name anyone as heir, many would think also to James V of Scotland as possible heir not only Mary or Lincoln...
In any case Henry would have named Richmond as heir presuntive “until or unless I had a legitimate son” not invest him as Prince of Wales (and he would do it for reinforce Richmond’s position).
Henry Brandon, Earl of Lincoln will be married to Katherine Willoughby between 1532/34 (and the earliest possibility to take in consideration a wedding for Mary will be in middle 1536, after Anne Boleyn’s death, Henry wedding to Jane Seymour and Mary’s submission) so is more likely who Henry VIII on his deathbed (or before) will arrange a wedding between the eldest son of his namesake nephew and his younger daughter Elizabeth...
 
With Henry who do not name anyone as heir, many would think also to James V of Scotland as possible heir not only Mary or Lincoln...
In any case Henry would have named Richmond as heir presuntive “until or unless I had a legitimate son” not invest him as Prince of Wales (and he would do it for reinforce Richmond’s position).
Henry Brandon, Earl of Lincoln will be married to Katherine Willoughby between 1532/34 (and the earliest possibility to take in consideration a wedding for Mary will be in middle 1536, after Anne Boleyn’s death, Henry wedding to Jane Seymour and Mary’s submission) so is more likely who Henry VIII on his deathbed (or before) will arrange a wedding between the eldest son of his namesake nephew and his younger daughter Elizabeth...

Unless something were to happen to Catherine of course, and of course there might be no Elizabeth
 
So, let's say that Henry Brandon and Mary are rumoured to be getting married in the late 1530s, Mary is the only heir Henry VIII has had of his body. and with his accident in 1536, and the subsequent failure to produce children in later marriages, everything seems to be crashing in around hum, the King's health is failing, and England poises itself for another war. Henry had named Richmond his heir, but then the boy died in 1536. In 1537, Henry falls seriously ill, what happens next?
 
So, let's say that Henry Brandon and Mary are rumoured to be getting married in the late 1530s, Mary is the only heir Henry VIII has had of his body. and with his accident in 1536, and the subsequent failure to produce children in later marriages, everything seems to be crashing in around hum, the King's health is failing, and England poises itself for another war. Henry had named Richmond his heir, but then the boy died in 1536. In 1537, Henry falls seriously ill, what happens next?
At that point Henry Brandon will be almost surely married (likely to Katherine Willoughby) and Mary herself will not be interested at all in marrying Lincoln... If she must marry one of her paternal relative (and she would like much better marrying a maternal one) then James V of Scotland is a much interesting match for her and a much better way for reinforce her claim on the English Crown as James’s mother was Henry’s eldest sister while Brandon is the son of the younger.
 
At that point Henry Brandon will be almost surely married (likely to Katherine Willoughby) and Mary herself will not be interested at all in marrying Lincoln... If she must marry one of her paternal relative (and she would like much better marrying a maternal one) then James V of Scotland is a much interesting match for her

Interesting, do you think she'd go for it then? Who would Henry want her to marry, or would he be more inclined to wait until the last moment?
 
Interesting, do you think she'd go for it then? Who would Henry want her to marry, or would he be more inclined to wait until the last moment?
Well James V of Scotland is a King in his own right and already Henry’s nephew so he is clearly the best choice for a Princes Mary who is her father’s heiress but can also be replaced by a younger brother...
Mary will likely still more inclined to marry some maternal relative so if the choice will be totally hers the Duke of Beja has great chances to be choised as Prince/King Consort in the second half of 1530s... but if Mary want a King then James V of Scotland is again the logical option...
Really I can not see either from Henry or Mary point of view any interest in wasting her in a wedding to Brandon...
 
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