henry Bolingbroke dies in 1386 without issue

So a random thought, via the entail of 1377, the house of Lancaster was the next in line to the throne after Richard II. What would happen if Henry if Bolingbroke john of gaunts only legitimate son died in 1386 with no issue? Would John try for another child with Constance of Castile? Would he push for the Beaufort to be legitimised and put in the line of succession?

If gaunt dies as otl in 1399, who might take the bate to remove Richard II assuming he still goes on his tyranny and has no successor of his own body?
 
I can see an attempt at legitimisation but an interesting angle would be John's daughters.
Catherine would probably still go to Castile.
Elisabeth married John Holland who became Earl of Huntingdon and later Duke of Exeter through his support of Richard II. With John having no legitimate son Holland could aim for the Lancaster inheritance, certainly he'll have a claim to the titles of Earl of Leicester, Earl of Lancaster, and Earl of Derby, if not granted the ducal title to Lancaster. Holland is Richard's right hand man and halfbrother so this all seems likely following John's death Richard will probably confirm.
The Beauforts might get put in the succession but probably at the bottom. Richard's entail will now stick and the Earl of March becomes heir presumptive if Richard fails to have one. Holland as regent if needed.
 
If gaunt dies as otl in 1399, who might take the bate to remove Richard II assuming he still goes on his tyranny and has no successor of his own body?

Well, the Yorks are the next ones along in the male line and they were relatively close to Richard IOTL- Edmund Duke of York was trusted enough to be left in charge of the kingdom while Richard was in Ireland (though he promptly flipped in favour of Bolingbroke), and his son Edward was very close to Richard, having gotten titles (Earl of Rutland, Duke of Aumale) and lands, as well as being complicit in affairs regarding Gloucester, Warwick and Arundel.

If the discontented lords are looking for a royal figurehead then Humphrey, Earl of Buckingham could work if he survives longer- the murder of his father and loss of the dukedom (assuming things go down as OTL) give him motive. Richard did keep a close eye on him IOTL- he was a ward of the crown and taken with Richard to Ireland, but once he's a full-fledged adult it might be more difficult to drag him around like this. Though obviously there's no reasonable basis on which Humphrey can claim the throne, and his health was said to be delicate.

No Bolingbroke also means Norfolk sticks around, for whatever that's worth.
 
What would then happen in the HYW?(since it seems that we are now butterflying away
Henry IV, which of course also disposes of
Henry V, who of course re-started England's
attempt to conquer France)
 
Okay very interesting, so Holland might claim the titles of earls that were part of his father in laws inheritance. Making him incredibly powerful. Would Richards entail of 1399 still come about? I had thought that was done in response to Bolingbroke being exiled? Richard himself didn’t seem to want Mortimer as heir?

As for the HYW perhaos it subsides?
 
So, am I right in assuming that without Bolingbroke around, that Richard would either firmly confirm Mortimer as his heir, or give the heirship to Edmund of Langley? Would Gaunt try to have another legitimate son with Constance of Castile? She was only thirty-two at this point
 
So, am I right in assuming that without Bolingbroke around, that Richard would either firmly confirm Mortimer as his heir, or give the heirship to Edmund of Langley? Would Gaunt try to have another legitimate son with Constance of Castile? She was only thirty-two at this point
Yes to all.
Thinking futher about Langley/York versus Mortimer depends if John has a son or not since Richard appears to be against a Lancaster succession.
 
Yes to all.
Thinking futher about Langley/York versus Mortimer depends if John has a son or not since Richard appears to be against a Lancaster succession.

Alright intriguing, what would make for a more compelling narrative? Gaunt having a son with Constance of Castile that's around fourteen around the time of Richard II's otl deposition, or there being no son?
 
Alright intriguing, what would make for a more compelling narrative? Gaunt having a son with Constance of Castile that's around fourteen around the time of Richard II's otl deposition, or there being no son?
No son.
Richard hasn't been dispossessed and has probably made Holland Duke of Lancaster (Derby? Leicester? Huntingdon? Or Exeter as OTL?), a rivalry between Holland and Langley/sons is probably beginning, and Mortimer is a pawn in their games of power.
Add in the Percys and Glyndwr and the WotR kicks off early.
 
No son.
Richard hasn't been dispossessed and has probably made Holland Duke of Lancaster (Derby? Leicester? Huntingdon? Or Exeter as OTL?), a rivalry between Holland and Langley/sons is probably beginning, and Mortimer is a pawn in their games of power.
Add in the Percys and Glyndwr and the WotR kicks off early.

OOOh very interesting, Gaunt will be saddened by that I think, but it does change things considerably. Would Richard II look to name Mortimer his heir outright as he did in that supposed 1399 entail? Or would he go for York, as he seemed to want Edward of Norwich to succeed him?
 
OOOh very interesting, Gaunt will be saddened by that I think, but it does change things considerably. Would Richard II look to name Mortimer his heir outright as he did in that supposed 1399 entail? Or would he go for York, as he seemed to want Edward of Norwich to succeed him?
With no threat by Lancaster I suspect any entail to wait and depend on how the early 1400s go. The older Mortimer is and the more his family support Richard the more likely Mortimer will be named heir presumptive.
Richard's entail will need to specify the order of inheritance for each male and female line (including whether full or partial agnatic) or Holland's line becomes a valid cause to rebel behind if nonroyal inheritances get kept by the new king.
 
With no threat by Lancaster I suspect any entail to wait and depend on how the early 1400s go. The older Mortimer is and the more his family support Richard the more likely Mortimer will be named heir presumptive.
Richard's entail will need to specify the order of inheritance for each male and female line (including whether full or partial agnatic) or Holland's line becomes a valid cause to rebel behind if nonroyal inheritances get kept by the new king.

Alright interesting, would you recommend keeping Mortimer's father alive, or does that detract from how politically intriguing things could get?
 
Alright interesting, would you recommend keeping Mortimer's father alive, or does that detract from how politically intriguing things could get?
Roger alive strengthens the case for him to inherit the crown and his sons are probably fostered with Richard.
 
Would an entail by Richard II, go something along the lines of, the heirs male of insert heir, followed by the heirs male of the said heir, then next preferred candidate etc?
 
Would an entail by Richard II, go something along the lines of, the heirs male of insert heir, followed by the heirs male of the said heir, then next preferred candidate etc?
The prominent lines c1402 (husbands of female heirs italicized):
Heirs of Clarence: Edmund Mortimer Earl of March
Heirs of Lancaster: i) John King of Portugal ii) John Holland Duke of X iii) Henry King of Castile iv) John Beaufort Earl of Somerset
Heirs of York: I) Edward Norwich Duke of York ii) Richard Earl of Cambridge
Heirs of Gloucester: Edmund Earl of Stafford

So it's a case of whether sons of daughters of a senior line rank above or below sons of sons of a junior line and whether that is secure the next generation down.
 
Alrighty, hmm I guess they’d also need to consider where their own claim comes from re Matilda or if Stephen adopted Henry ii.
 
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