Help with Surviving Vinland Ideas

[Agentdark]

Wow, these are all really awsome ideas, and I feel like all of them could work rather well.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Vinland, more than other areas of the North Atlantic, requires some form of massive European immigration in order for it to work - hence the people factor is relevant.

Why more?

Or they could just use a route through the Med.

There is no Mississippi culture in the Northeast and the High Arctic, and I would seriously doubt any Norseman going that far south.

Do you realize how far Constantinople is?

Latitude for latitude, the distance from L´Anse aux Meadows to Key West is roughly as much as the distance from Iceland or Trondheim to Gibraltar. Which the Norse did cover. But then from Gibraltar to Constantinople or Jerusalem is longer distance than from Key West to Veracruz or Chichen Itza.

Yes, the Vikings knew that seaway existed. A few did go so far. But even rounding Europe to Contantinople did not give them the information that the shortcut overland from Volkhov to Dnieper was passable. They had to explore it themselves and verify that it was not blocked by mountains or by invincible locals.

The Norse, if settled in Newfoundland, could sail up Saint Lawrence till Lachine Rapids (Their deepest drawing ships, knarrs which they preferred for long distance trade or settlement, would draw perhaps 1,5 m loaded, so the shoals of Lake Saint Pierre were no problem, like the shoals at the mouth and source of Neva were not).

In 1534-1541, Cartier found numerous, maize-growing Indians on lower Saint Lawrence, living in big villages like Stadacona and Hochelaga, some fortified.

In year 1000, were the maize growers already there, or did they arrive some time between 1000 and 1534?

In any case, south shore of Lake Superior was also chilly for Mississippi Culture maize growers. Yet the native copper of Lake Superior was traded to Mississipi Culture trade networks. Why wouldn´t iron from the Norse be likewise traded from Montreal?

 

[Dan1988]

Ahem. It took all of 10 seconds on google to find the website of a Canadian geologist (here) who has a photo of samples of bog iron ore he collected at St Lunaire, Newfoundland. Very close to L'Anse aux Meadows, in fact.

The reports of L'Anse aux Meadows also describe how local bog iron ore was used to make iron nails, rivets, and tools at that site. The vicinity of L'Anse aux Meadows includes a lot of swampy ground where bog iron accumulates. So bog iron was available for the Norse if they could establish themselves in Vinland.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

[Dan1988]

Wow, these are all really awsome ideas, and I feel like all of them could work rather well.

That's why you're on AH.com, Agentdark.

I suggest reading a book called Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga. This book was published by the Smithsonian in 2000 to coincide with an exhibit that was taking place at the Smithsonian's Museum of Natural History and was travelling to other museums in North America as well (including Ottawa's own Canadian Museum of Civilization). It is a treasure trove of ideas for you to pore over, from archaeologists to saga scholars (like Gísli Sigurðsson).

 

[Dan1988]

Why more?

Simple - the base economy will most likely be based around farming and fishing. After all, how are you going to feed a bunch of Norsemen to do what you want them to do? To do that requires people, and in Vinland's case requires a lot. One settlement in the Island of Newfoundland is not enough. You basically need vast settlement blocks of people on the Island, at least, in order for an Icelandic-style farming economy to operate - not to mention a Faroese-style fishing economy, which the old-fashioned outport settlements common to Newfoundland in OTL could work.

The rest I'll handle later - I'm in a hurry ATM.

 

[Tyr]

True - or they could boink the local women more often, thus creating a early form of Métis people.

Yeah, I'd think that would be quite the given especially since the type of Norsemen who go off exploring into the unknown are 99.9999% men.
Perhaps this could be a way to attract more immigrants?- Young men with few prospects at home. Forget the nativeless wastes of Greenland and Iceland, women aplenty in the Americas.
They didn't do this IOTL Greenland though that I can recall reading, the Norse and Eskimo lines don't cross over too much. Which strikes me as very peculiar.

 

[Theodoric]

They didn't do this IOTL Greenland though that I can recall reading, the Norse and Eskimo lines don't cross over too much. Which strikes me as very peculiar.

Well, from what I know, the Norse stayed in the southeast, while the natives had the rest of the island for themselves.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I am telling you Jomburg Viking's in the new world would be epic. They were Pagan and believed in a caste system, you had the Jomburg Warrior Class and the Merchant (Blacksmith) Class to repair and construct all their goods and on a plus side they were pushed Westward after their defeat (Fluke) in Sweden during the reign of Eric the Victorious and they apparently ended up in Iceland in small numbers only to be pushed out and disappear.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Simple - the base economy will most likely be based around farming and fishing. After all, how are you going to feed a bunch of Norsemen to do what you want them to do? To do that requires people, and in Vinland's case requires a lot. One settlement in the Island of Newfoundland is not enough. You basically need vast settlement blocks of people on the Island, at least, in order for an Icelandic-style farming economy to operate - not to mention a Faroese-style fishing economy, which the old-fashioned outport settlements common to Newfoundland in OTL could work.

You need a lot of people to feed a lot of Norsemen. To feed a small bunch of Norsemen can be fed by a small bunch of people.

A small bunch of Norsemen could be fed in Western Settlement of Greenland by themselves. So why not in Newfoundland.

 

[Dan1988]

Yeah, I'd think that would be quite the given especially since the type of Norsemen who go off exploring into the unknown are 99.9999% men.
Perhaps this could be a way to attract more immigrants?- Young men with few prospects at home. Forget the nativeless wastes of Greenland and Iceland, women aplenty in the Americas.

There you go! The effects on the language and culture would be tremendous from such mixed marriages, I would think.

They didn't do this IOTL Greenland though that I can recall reading, the Norse and Eskimo lines don't cross over too much. Which strikes me as very peculiar.

That's because the Inuit arrived later on in the history of Greenland - having driven the Dorset culture out of the High Arctic.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

In 1534-1541, Cartier found numerous, maize-growing Indians on lower Saint Lawrence, living in big villages like Stadacona and Hochelaga, some fortified.

In year 1000, were the maize growers already there, or did they arrive some time between 1000 and 1534?

Hurons and Iroquois both started growing corn ~1300. (as evidenced by pollen found in archaeological digs). So, no maize culture is MUCH later than Vinland.

In any case, south shore of Lake Superior was also chilly for Mississippi Culture maize growers. Yet the native copper of Lake Superior was traded to Mississipi Culture trade networks. Why wouldn´t iron from the Norse be likewise traded from Montreal?

Of course it would. OTL shells and native copper, etc., travelled over a thousand miles over existing trade routes.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Hurons and Iroquois both started growing corn ~1300. (as evidenced by pollen found in archaeological digs). So, no maize culture is MUCH later than Vinland.

Thanks!
As of 1000, where were northernmost maize fields in Great Lakes/Mississippi valley? And where were northernmost maize fields on Atlantic coast?

Of course it would. OTL shells and native copper, etc., travelled over a thousand miles over existing trade routes.

So Norse blacksmiths of Montreal would easily trade with Mississippi culture.

As the Norse sail up Saint Lawrence, they only find scattered bands of hunter-gatherers on shores. So they settle on suitable isles like Isle of Orleans and Isle of Montreal. The winters are harsh but not colder than southern Greenland, and shorter. Summers are warm and long, but not too hot for plants like barley and oats (which the Norse did try growing on Iceland and Greenland). If even a few Norse manage to come all the way from, say, Norse settlements in Ireland or Denmark and south Norway to Upper Vinland, they can bring wheat, rye etc. seed and know-how to plant them, and once they verify it works, teach their Icelandic neighbours.

Isles of Orleans and Montreal are not militarily defensible (a fleet of canoes could easily cross the channel) but the rivers at least provide a simple and clear demarcation line. The Skraelings cannot come across the river to steal kine and when caught pretend that they got lost pursuing moose. So they can be punished when caught and subjected to return raids. The Norse can in relative safety turn their kine and sheep loose on the isle for summer and only worry about making winter hay on enclosed hayfields.

The Skraelings can benefit a lot - go to the isle to buy things which they cannot make themselves like corn, cheese and iron, and in return selling stuffs that the Norse could make themselves but do not need to bother with like game meat, furs, fish...

What next?

Will the Skraelings come to the Norse, or will the Norse seek out the portages of upper Saint Lawrence rapids to go and themselves trade with Skraelings?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Thanks!
As of 1000, where were northernmost maize fields in Great Lakes/Mississippi valley? And where were northernmost maize fields on Atlantic coast?

No clue, sorry. I have data from Canada (Hurons), 'cause I read Dad's 'Historical Atlas of Canada' (?) one summer (on vacation with my kids at the grandparents).

And I live in Iroquoia (Ste. Marie among the Iroquois is on the way to where the kids took Karate), so I've read up on that. I'm not so up on other parts of the US.


Oh. Duh. Mound builders. They had maize agriculture up the Ohio river, and they collapsed about the time the Iroquoians really got started.

Hopewell and Adena cultures, e.g.. Look them up.

 

[jayel]

The Skraelings can benefit a lot - go to the isle to buy things which they cannot make themselves like corn, cheese and iron, and in return selling stuffs that the Norse could make themselves but do not need to bother with like game meat, furs, fish

most Indians were lactose intolerant, read a story once about Norse meeting Indians giving them cheese in trade, Indians get sick think Norse poisoned them, get mad, wipe out Vinland outpost

 

[chornedsnorkack]

most Indians were lactose intolerant, read a story once about Norse meeting Indians giving them cheese in trade, Indians get sick think Norse poisoned them, get mad, wipe out Vinland outpost

It is fresh milk which contains lactose.

In making cheese, lactose is fermented away. Cheese and butter, neither of which contains lactose, are also dairy products which keep reasonably well and can therefore be transported.

If the Norse manage to defend themselves, they and the Skraelings would probably soon figure out that while milk is not good for everyone, cheese, butter, corn and iron tools are.

Once the Norse manage to portage around the rapids of Saint Lawrence, they could settle somewhere in Thousand Islands. Wolfe Island is sizable, they have sheltered channels there and can build ships to sail the open Lake Ontario. Compare Novgorod, founded just below the exit of Volkhov from Lake Ilmen.

On the Atlantic coast, what about the mouth of Hudson?

 

[Thinker1200]

I FUCKING LOVE THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!! Surviving Pagan Norse North America is one of my favorite types of TL's and is not done NEARLY enough IMHO. I have actually come up with a scenario that i think meets many of the original conditions of the OP.


POD:

It is the year 999, (One year before the discovery of Vinland in OTL.), and the continued pressures of King Olaf of Norway have split Iceland nearly in, one third Christian, the rest Pagan. The tribes are approaching civil war with each other over both religion and foreign intervention from Norway. However at that years meeting of the All-Thing, the two sides agree to instead put the process up for mediation, but many of the Christians are opposed to this. The man chosen for the job is a pagan priest by the name of Thorgeir Thorkelsson, a chieftain and pagan priest well known and respected as a moderate and arbitrator by the whole of Iceland. He agree to listen to both sides. After wards he spends a day underneath a fur blanket in meditation and thinking. The next day when the All-Thing meets again Thorgeir says that Iceland shall remain Pagan, (IOTL he choose Christianity.) This ENRAGES the Christian faction, as they see this as an affort to God by a heretic and Pagan, but they manage to hold their peace. That is until they manage to get royal troops and a seal of "Crusade" from King Olaf a year later in 1000. This ignites a civil war between the Pagans and Christians.
Now then onto the second major event. It is May 1000 and Lief Eriksson, son of the discoverer Erik the Red, is on his way with his father to his ship, inspired by the reports of Bjarni Herjolfsson, a close friend of the family whom got lost some 15 years prior and sighted new land to the west, to discover this new land. His father boards the ship without incident and sets sail across the seas to discover Helleuland, Markland and Vinland. Realizing that hes struck something VERY valuable, he sets up a base and goes back to Greenland, fully intending to add Vinland to his personal Empire.
Back in Iceland, however, things are not going so good for the Pagans as the royal forces are slowly but surely taking the areas of Iceland that have belonged to the pagans for almost 150 years. As the battles are proving to be more and more fruitless, about 9000 Pagans decide to move on from Iceland before the king's forces arrive. They start heading for Greenland in 1003 AD.
In Greenland these settlers arrive to the tales of Eric the Red's Vinland. ((IOTL this man managed to sell Greenland as a paradise and people moved there, i think he can do it again.)) He easily manages to get about a hundred settlers to go with him and his second son Thorvald, as there is not a lot of room left in Greenland by this time either. Other events in Greenland cause a backlash against the few Christians living there as the Icelanders bring tales of atrocities committed against them by the Christian. The few Christians in Greenland flee to Norway and Iceland eventually, Leif included after arguments with his father. King Olaf has his attention pulled away from Iceland by a war with the Danes at this point and the attention of Norway doesnt return to Iceland ever again.
In Vinland the infamous meeting with the Skraelings goes down as it did, but this time the Vikings managed to fight them off and dont lose Eric or Thorvald, ((He was killed IOTL fighting the Natives.)) After driving them away Eric returns to Greenland and Thorvald goes on to found a few towns in Newfoundland........

Thats all i have for now as my history on Native Americans is rather sketchy. But plz tell me what you think.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

It is the year 999, (One year before the discovery of Vinland in OTL.), and the continued pressures of King Olaf of Norway have split Iceland nearly in, one third Christian, the rest Pagan. The tribes are approaching civil war with each other over both religion and foreign intervention from Norway. However at that years meeting of the All-Thing, the two sides agree to instead put the process up for mediation, but many of the Christians are opposed to this. The man chosen for the job is a pagan priest by the name of Thorgeir Thorkelsson, a chieftain and pagan priest well known and respected as a moderate and arbitrator by the whole of Iceland. He agree to listen to both sides. After wards he spends a day underneath a fur blanket in meditation and thinking. The next day when the All-Thing meets again Thorgeir says that Iceland shall remain Pagan, (IOTL he choose Christianity.) This ENRAGES the Christian faction, as they see this as an affort to God by a heretic and Pagan, but they manage to hold their peace. That is until they manage to get royal troops and a seal of "Crusade" from King Olaf a year later in 1000.

Will not happen. OTL Olaf Tryggvason got a substantial amount of opposition around Scandinavia, and was killed in Battle of Swold in 1000. Just a few months after Thorgeir had declared Iceland officially Christian, required everybody to get baptized and forbidden public heathen sacrifices. There were, however, concessions to heathens: secret sacrifices, eating horsemeat and infanticide were allowed.

After Olaf Tryggvason, Norway was ruled by two Earls of Lade. They accepted baptism and remained Christian; but unlike Olaf Tryggvason who had been converting people by sword and torture, they forced no one to be Christian. The result was that Christianity almost disappeared from inland Norway, while it remained in coastal areas, and skalds praised the earls in quite heathen terms.

So, Thorgeir declares that Iceland remains heathen, but makes a number of explicit concessions regarding toleration of Christianity and relations between them and heathens. What next?

 

[Thinker1200]

Well in order for my POD to work, it must have three things happen:

1. Iceland must fall to a Christian Civil War/Invasion that drives the Pagans west to Greenland.
2. Erik the Red must discover Vinland.
3. Lief needs to return to Norway/Iceland.

 

[Faeelin]

In contrast Virginia was a net population loss until the second half of the 17th Century and here there won't be any cash crops, any convenient slaves to ship in...

Of course, cash crops were part of the problem in Virginia, along with the disease environment. People were choosing to grow tobacco over grain; so they were literally starving themselves to death.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Norway had religious tolerance from 1000 to 1015; but Olaf Haraldsson went on to enforce Christianity by violence till 1028.

Thorgeir had OTL made concessions to heathens on Iceland in 1000; but those concessions were repealed in 1024.

If Thorgeir in 1000 made concessions to Christians but kept Iceland officially heathen, many of the Christians in Iceland would regard concessions as insufficient. As would many Christians outside Iceland. So, with Olaf Haraldsson interfering, things can get hot in Iceland around 1024.

Now, remember how few people were needed to settle Greenland. There were just 560 people who arrived on the invitation of Erik. The Eastern Settlement would support over 2000 souls. And yet Erik advised to split the settlement and send a part of people to Western Settlement, hundreds of km away.

Suppose that L´Anse Aux Meadows settlement survives and thrives. It is far to the south of Greenland, with warmer summers - they can grow grain there, and sell grain, timber, ships and iron to Greenland and Iceland. In OTL, Iceland and Greenland had to import these. The settlers did find Iceland covered with forest till mountains; but the forests were mostly birch, rather low, crooked and shrubby even then; and in a century they had cut and burnt 90% of those. Probably likewise in Greenland. While junipers do grow in Iceland and Greenland, there are absolutely no pines, spruces or other tall and straight conifers on either isle. Whereas Newfoundland does have those!

By 13th century, a problem with Iceland was that not only did Iceland depend on imports, but the ships were mostly built and operated by Norwegians. King of Norway could therefore tamper with trade of Iceland and, not owning the ships, the Icelanders could not easily do their own trade with Scotland or Ireland. Whereas heathen Vinland hostile to Norway would provide an alternative source for many imports OTL Iceland needed, and supply the ships so that Iceland could find alternative trade partners for other Europaean goods.

Even barring a civil war, by 976 Iceland was fully settled, maybe overpopulated. A population of 20 000 souls or so might send away a few hundred settlers every few years.

If by 1024, Greenland and Vinland have a substantial Christian minority tolerated by the heathen majority, and then a civil war breaks out on Iceland sponsored by Olaf Haraldsson, this can cause a backlash in Greenland and Vinland. From the point of view of heathens, the Christians of Iceland are ingrates who had generous concessions and broke the peace to invite a foreign tyrant. They might not persecute the Christian minority already in Vinland - on grounds that they are their neighbours and friends and unlike the Icelanders did keep their peace - but they may decide that any Christian from Iceland who has a reason to leave Iceland is guilty of his own plight and not welcome in Vinland.

As I mentioned, the Norse could explore far and wide. Several circumnavigations of Iceland, and Erik explored Greenland, giving directions for Western Settlement as well as northern hunting grounds, visiting which became a major part of Greenland economy.

From L´Anse Aux Meadows, what next?

Circumnavigating Newfoundland. The northeast coast with gulfs and reefs allows more farming and fishing settlements, trade with Skraelings and landfall for ships making a shortcut from Greenland.

But Belle Isle Strait will lead to more sheltered Saint Lawrence Gulf, western coast of Newfoundland and southern coast of Labrador.

Now, in the few decades after settling Vinland, Erik would have time to explore all around Saint Lawrence Gulf, and beyond on Atlantic Coast.

It seems to me that Cape Breton is a good place to settle. Cape Breton Highlands provide a visible landfall across Cabot Strait. Anyone who wants to go up Saint Lawrence River could go south and make a stop on Cape Breton - then turn west across Magdalen Islands or Prince Edward Island towards Gaspe Peninsula, instead of following Labrador coast and trying to pick a stopping place there. And from Cape Breton, the way southwest along Nova Scotia Atlantic coast is also open. The island has nice sheltered inland Bras d´Or lake, accessible for all the biggest Viking ships. Very fitting place for Norse settlement.